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Comment by alewi481 | Hacker News Reader

I'd like to give kudos to Apple for including the iPhone 5S in this security update, which was released on September 20, 2013, over 7 years ago! Supporting a product for even 3 years is rare in the smartphone world.

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Wouldn't last official sale date be a better indicator of true device support? For example if someone bought it in an Apple store on the last day available, how long period would they have received updates for?

For example in mid 2017 it was still officially sold by Apple in India (source: https://www.iphonehacks.com/2017/05/apple-iphone-5s-iphone-s...).

No, because devices can be and sometimes are sold with software that is already out of date. The better indicator is how long software support is provided for a device from beginning to end.

Why is that a better indicator?

If I buy a new phone from the manufacturer and it's already unsupported, that's really bad. I don't care if it was supported for 8 years before I bought it.

Hah. This bit us when I got my mother an iPhone SE (2016) to replace her iPhone 4 a year or so ago. I tried to restore from iCloud backup and it kept failing, and finally it dawned on me that the OS may have been out of date. Skipped the restore, updated the OS, and wiped the phone. The restore worked correctly.

On the flip side, the Apple guys have a lot of patience to deal with my stubborn ass trying to activate an iPhone 4... the non-SIM servers were taken offline years ago so I popped in a SIM and off I went.

Sure but that doesn't change how long they supported after end of sale which wasn't in 2013 but at least until 2017. So ~3 years of software updates from end of sale. Still OK but not anything special.

To not be special, there must be many phones out there getting the same or better support. What are they? Who sells these many other smartphones that have had 3 or more years of updates from last sale?

Certainly not the Pixel phones, they get 3 years support from first launch only, and they're supposedly the gold standard for Android software support. It's pretty much the reason they exist. Yet after last sale support for the 5S matched the Pixel's from launch support, and we don't even know that this is the last update the 5S will get.

You decided to count the days of support in a completely uncommon way that no one usually discusses but decided that three years was ok based on the common way people count, which is since initial release.

You can’t have your cake and eat it as well.

>Wouldn't last official sale date be a better indicator of true device support?

well in that case many cheap android phones/tablets would have negative support periods, considering they don't release any updates at all.

Yes? That sounds about right.

Which makes it kind of a pointlessly obtuse metric. To claim a device has negative months of support.

Sorry, I don't follow.

It's accurate, though. When I am evaluating devices to buy, a metric I care about is "after I buy this, how long will it remain up-to-date with security patches?" And the answer to that question is "on the day that you buy it, it is already several months behind on security patches and will not improve." That metric is not the be-all-end-all of support, but is meaningful, and low or negative values have the correct interpretation in that context.

It's not pointless at all. It accurately reflects the situation of buying a device off the shelf long after its official end of life.

Apple uses this metric as well[1]. If something hasn't been sold by Apple for 5 years (but less than 7 years), it's considered vintage and you can still get hardware service and certain critical software fixes, though not necessarily any new features.

The support for MacBooks is actually great. Certain Late 2013 and Mid 2014 Retina MacBook Pros, while considered vintage, will be receiving the Big Sur update[2].

1. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624 2. https://www.apple.com/macos/big-sur-preview/ (at the bottom of the page)

> The support for MacBooks is actually great. Certain Late 2013 and Mid 2014 Retina MacBook Pros, while considered vintage, will be receiving the Big Sur update.

I think it's more likely that Apple's new frameworks don't require any fancy hardware features that aren't available in the Late 2013 MacBook Pros.

It's true that laptop computers have not changed as much over the years. This in large part because Intel CPU's and architecture have not changed as much, while iPhone CPU's have improved by leaps and bounds.

I wonder how much this might change when Apple Silicon comes to the Mac.

It feels like smartphones are stabilizing as well. I don't see myself needing to replace my iPhone 8 for a while, even though there have been three more generations afterwards. An iPhone 5 felt much more outdated at the time of the 6s/SE.

Having owned a 5S, 6 plus, and now XR, the all screen design is a much bigger upgrade than iPhone 5 vs. 6S in my opinion.

Agreed - since 2017 the main improvements have been to the cameras, plus some improvements to efficiency, and (depending on your carrier) 5G.

I find 5G (coverage on mid-band, not the hyped speed on ultra-wideband) to be the most compelling reason to upgrade my phone this year.

> I think it's more likely that Apple's new frameworks don't require any fancy hardware features

Mojave and higher isn’t “supported” on the cheese grater Mac Pro’s despite it running more than fine, including with FileVault 2 enabled on the boot volume (which an Apple exec tried to claim was technically not possible).

> Mojave and higher isn’t “supported” on the cheese grater Mac Pro

The 2010 and 2012 Mac Pros officially support Mojave with a compatible video card:

Install macOS 10.14 Mojave on Mac Pro (Mid 2010) and Mac Pro (Mid 2012) https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208898

Yeah, my sentence structure leaves a bit to be desired. The key there is including FileVault being enabled.

I have a Mid-2014 RMBP, there's nothing wrong with it at all. It's sad to think OS support may be dropped in the next few years.

Still rocking my maxxed-out 2012 mbp15r here.

Ahem, rocking my 2009 MBP running Catalina =D

Although this appears to be the end of the line as there is no graphic acceleration support in Big Sur

Yes, we're bombarded with guilt messages about us destroying the planet but even when we want to do the right thing there's no path available.

I have an old Samsung tablet that doesn't work anymore. I could try to change the battery for 20€ or buy the cheapest tablet on Amazon for 40€

Comparatively, no. Android phones generally get a maximum of 3 years of security updates from launch, not from last device sale date. So, within mobile phones, it's more informative to compare it to their competition. It shows you just how much better Apple is at mobile device support compared to everyone else.

So use the last sale date for both. Your point makes no sense.

Galaxy S8 on sale at Walmart, Staples, and NewEgg. Likely falls off support in 3-4 months. So Android flagships are close to zero or even negative support time?

This is what got me to finally switch to Apple. Updates take forever. I bought a Samsung off Amazon for testing and for some reason I still have to wait on T-Mobile. And then after a year, maybe two, there just aren’t anymore updates.

Samsung makes superb hardware but they're clearly not at ease with software, it always feels like an afterthought.

If they were serious about competing with Apple software is where they should focus.

This is why I switched to Pixel. 3 years of full updates. And you can then switch to LineageOS if you'd like as well.

That sounds dangerous to me.

They have no legal requirement to update. Its also not a bait and switch, they have done this for a decade now. By an iphone if you want updates.

Well, you still get updates through the store way longer than 3 years. With more and more components (e.g. the browser) coming through the store, the picture is not as black and white anymore.

Are you talking about OS level updates or just updates for individual apps?

A range would be fair. For example "safe to use for 3-7 years" in the case of this phone by the sound of it.

The 5S is still the perfect iPhone.

If the 5S is perfect, what's the iPhone SE (2016)?

The last iPhone that I use.:)

I have one also. Love it as a secondary phone

Not chamfered :(

sure they are, they're just matte finished.

My current phone.

The price is definitely right -- cheaper than an upgrade!

The last iPhone with proper headphone support.

I love the 5S form factor as well. I only updated from it earlier this year to get iOS 13 to use the COVID Alert app here in Canada (and my upgrade was buying a smashed-screen iPhone SE for next to nothing, of course, and swapping the old phone's screen onto it).

What's in your back pocket? Seriously, love my SE. I just got the battery replaced, $49 taken from a MacBook trade-in value, so basically free since I can't use that money any other way.

A replica.

How do you still have one that's running OK? My Apple products almost always "die" after a few years. I had the 5S but one day it crashed and would not turn back on no matter what I did. The iPhone I had before that did the same thing.

Is that a common issue? I've certainly heard about devices losing battery life and cameras progressively getting worse, but complete death is very uncommon unless you use it without a case and drop it all the time or something.

I still have a working iPhone 5 (no S) with a home button that spins and a slightly broken screen bezel but no other issues.

I have a 4S still running.

At one point I thought it died permanently. But it turned out to only be the screen dimming to much. In bright light it auto adjusted enough to be visible, allowing me to rise the brightness.

I had a 5s die at one point, it got reset to the point where it needed to activate, and couldn’t.

How do you still have one that's running OK? My Apple products almost always "die" after a few years.

Consider yourself unlucky and never buy a lottery ticket.

Apple is well-known for making products that last longer than most others in the industry.

I have a launch day iPhone 5 that gets daily use and still works fine as of this morning. Launch day was in September of 2012.

The list of old Apple devices that still work well is impressive: I still have one original iPad, an iPhone 3GS, several iPhone 4. Same goes for the more recent ones, with the exception of the few devices that I dropped on hard floors over the last 10 years...

Still have a first-generation iPod Touch running iOS 3. Works like a charm, can even download some apps from the App Store. Bit of a shock how both primitive and advanced the early versions of iOS were.

I had an iPad 1 running iOS 5 I think, but in the end I stopped using it because Safari would "crash" on most websites due to it running out of ram I guess.

IIRC there's 128M of ram on the fist iPad.

I have an iPhone 3GS and an iPad 2 that still work. They are very slow and most apps don’t support their oses. I’d still have an iPhone 7 Plus if it wasn’t at the bottom of a river rapid. My wife has a white MacBook somewhere from 2009/10.

The only problem I’ve had was a 2011 MBP have a gpu issue.

I fired up an old 5S as a result of this post and was sad to find that it appears to be dead.

I have a 4S that's still running perfectly happily. Can't do much with it, mind, given that everything is wildly out of date but it may yet get repurposed as a webcam when I get some free time.

I believe you but I've honestly never heard of anybody suffering "random cellphone death" - Apple or otherwise. Everybody seems to break them or upgrade them long before that.

I had it with Nexus 5x. It died after 1.5 years when I used an app to get a train ticket. It turned out it was a known hardware bug judging by forums. It was in Norway so the phone was still under warranty and it was “repaired” - the motherboard was replaced. Still not much later I bought the original iPhone SE. I just did not like the idea of phone stopping working for no reason.

Yes, the 5X has a known nardware issue.

Well, let's not get crazy. It's fine (I'm using it currently because my Samsung S9 died) but it's definitely no perfect phone. It doesn't even have water resistance and the screen to body ratio is pretty bad, IMO.

Only upside is the thing is built in such a way that it has barely taken any damage from the years of abuse I put it through.

I'm likely getting an iPhone 12 Pro Max very soon and will continue to only use the iPhone 5S I've had since 2013 as a backup.

You're going from a 5s to a Pro Max? That's almost a jump across product categories... like switching from an iPhone to an iPad Mini.

Or from a Commodore 64 to a first-generation iMac.

I remember the first generation imac, but i dont remember them being that bad.

> the screen to body ratio is pretty bad, IMO

if rated against _my_ body, the ratio is damn near perfect

The 12 mini is gonna be my next daily driver.

Same here.

I write iOS software, so I have a whole bunch of test units.

My "low-end" test unit is an iPod Touch (last gen). Basically, a skinny SE (Apple doesn't even have an iPod simulator -you're supposed to use an SE sim).

My regular daily phone is an Excess Max (XSMax). I'm sick to death of it. I don't have much use for all that screen real estate, and it's a big honkin' monster.

Every time I use my Touch, it makes me envious.

I'll be placing an order for a Mini, tomorrow.

Some YouTube gadget reviewers agree with you and predict some “revivals”.

Also to Google for finding majority of them

If only Google could put this much effort into supporting its own Pixel devices, which stop getting updates to the base OS after just three years.

I promise you, people inside google are equally frustrated with this unjustifiable top-down decision. (am Xoogler)

I know a google dev who says they wouldn't trust the security of an Android phone as far as they could throw it.

I know an apple dev who thinks the same about their product, lol.

Depending on your usecase, GrapheneOS may be of interest.

No support for Pixel 1, Pixel 2 are marked as obsolete, so I'm not sure it's better than Google as far as EOL is concerned.

https://grapheneos.org/releases

Ah, I take it back then. It's been a little while since I looked at it.

>after just three years

The 5S was sold from Apple stores in India in mid 2017. So that's 3 years of updates from end-of-sale and this is an OS update for a 2 year old OS. So two years of support. Less than the Pixel.

When someone buy a 5S in 2017 they surely know already, or should, that it is a cheap buy to last less than a newer model. So 3 years in this case is actually a great deal.

I had a Pixel 1, launched in 2016, and it lost support in 2019. 3 years after start of sale, not end of sale.

It's part of why I went back to Apple.

This is why Apple makes the cheapest smartphones, as long as you avoid dropping them.

My 8 (or 10?) year old AppleTV just got an update today. I was excited because the YouTube app pause function stopped working after the previous update a couple of weeks ago. Alas the problem remains.

Since this is a security update I think it’s more about support of an OS which is only 2 yrs old than the class of device as that class was supported with the initial iOS 12 release.

I think it's more a testament to the length of time they support their devices for.

This is what I try to explain when it comes to "why are you paying so much for Apple". Because when you buy a cheap Android phone from Xuoiamiaeoi or whatever, you get some custom crippled OS in god knows what ways in close to 0 long-term support from them.

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