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Comment by Aperocky | Hacker News Reader

Ant is definitely not a pyramid scheme, if you've ever been to China you'd know.

But b. is very credible. Jack has been criticized by state media as he piled negative comments to the regulators and traditional lenders - and frankly the regulators were right. Ant essentially needs no deposit to lend, relying on big data and not any traditional financial safety instruments. It's been overlooked for a while but when you get the big benefit of living outside of regulations you shut up and take what you get, and not making a public fuss about how 'every bank is stupid for following regulations'.

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> Ant is definitely not a pyramid scheme, if you've ever been to China you'd know.

As someone who lived in China for 9 years, these kinds of arguments are always really vacuous. Perhaps just say Ant isn't like Amway and has a low fraud rate (for China, anyways), which is probably enough to deflect the pyramid scheme argument without resorting to an authority fallacy.

> As someone who lived in China for 9 years [...] without resorting to an authority fallacy.

hmm...

He's not supporting his point by invoking his time in China. He's directly using it to deflate the other comment which _did_ use it as support for their claim.

It's appealing to an authority to say (or, to demonstrate from experience) that it is false authority.

> Ant essentially needs no deposit to lend,

Not necessarily deposits but reserves; the whole European financial crisis of 2008+ was over the question of "what IS the minimum reserve level for systemic safety?"?

> relying on big data and not any traditional financial safety instruments

This is the Boeing 737-MAX approach: it's not intrinsically safe, but we can cover its shortcomings with software.

To be fair no giant metal tube is intrinsically safe when thrown through the air at 1000kph. Now, the MAX, obviously, less so haha.

Air travel is extremely, incredibly safe. It's safer than any means of travel have ever been in the history of the planet.

That doesn't make throwing a metal tube through the air intrinsically safe, it just means we're very cognizant of how dangerous it is.

I guess it depends how on what you mean by intrinsically

I’m just saying a plane wouldn’t stay up without extensive software control. Substantially all the avionics on a plane are dedicated to covering the shortcomings and turning an intrinsically unsafe process into an exceptionally safe process.

> Ant is definitely not a pyramid scheme, if you've ever been to China you'd know.

I have been to China. As a foreigner I was not able to use any digital cash technologies (such as WeChat or Alipay). Did you have a Chinese bank account? How were you able to use Ant tech?

Apparently it’s recommended for visitors to get a Chinese bank account which was easy to do. At least it was in the past. Which I learned from a YouTube channel about living in China.

The guys sister visited for a few weeks and the first thing he did was take her to a bank and open an account. Which she was able to do as a foreigner.

I don’t know if that has changed recently.

I'm not sure what "recent" means, but 3-4 years ago when i first got to China it was very difficult to open a bank account as a foreigner, even with a huge wad of yuan in my pocket. It might just be the areas i visited, but i tried several different banks while traveling on a tourist visa and every single one said no.

I eventually was able to open an account, but i had to show proof of residence (apartment lease), proof of residence registration (obtained from local police), work permit and employment contract. Even opening a second account a couple years later (required because many employers in China will only pay into one specific bank) and speaking fairly fluent Chinese i had to go through the same song and dance.

That’s interesting, I may be wrong then about the odds in general of this approach. The guy had a work permit permit and lived in Shenzhen.

He now left China for good over various reasons and now makes anti China for a living (whom I’m sure is easy for anyone to find) but I remember that one distinctly being fairly recent. Upon second thought he may have referenced it in one of the videos of why he left China where one of his biggest complaints is how it’s harder for foreigners to live there than ever at the moment.

I personally don’t know much about the topic sadly. I was planning to go then the pandemic hit.

Shenzhen and Shanghai are possibly the only two that could do it within days and not weeks.

In ALL other regions ( including Beijing ) it is either weeks / months or literally impossible. ( Because no one knows how to do it )

Good to know. I'm curious why Shanghai is on your list but not Beijing.

It is basically down to experience and efficiency of those operations and know-how. Beijing tends to be a tad slower and stricter. It is still infinitely better better than say, Nanjing, where no one in the branch has a clue how to do it.

You have to have a resident visa (like a Z working or a student visa). I've never heard of any bank giving bank accounts to tourists; on the other hand it is easy to get one when you have all the proper docs. Getting a credit card on the other hand...forget it.

One of the many exhausting things about living in China as a foreigner is how much of their tech infrastructure excludes anyone who is not a Chinese citizen. Aside from the challenge of getting Alipay set up, the moment you leave mainland China (even to Hong Kong) you can no longer use Alipay to pay for anything, even though Chinese citizens are able to do this without any trouble.

Similarly, a lot of government-mandated apps require you to enter a state ID number which foreigners are not issued. The worst was living there through the coronavirus lockdowns and travel restrictions, because every town had its own special corona app to prove you had a green health code, but hardly any towns supported registration with a foreign passport. I presume that's changed now (i don't live there any more), but it's China, so there will undoubtedly be a new hazy private/public partnership gimmick app that makes things awkward for foreigners.

China's law does not apply, at least not easily, to a foreign citizens acting on a foreign soil, thus the Chinese company providing service would mean huge legal hazard for them, which is not the case for chinese citizen, where the contract entered between two chinese entities are protected under Chinese law and can be argued on a court of that jurisdiction.

Not parent, I had a few Chinese bank accounts but at the time you needed a Chinese ID number to use digital cash technologies. And no, Ant never became a thing for me (left in late 2016).

your first sentence contradicts your second paragraph :)

> Ant is definitely not a pyramid scheme, if you've ever been to China you'd know.

> frankly the regulators were right. Ant essentially needs no deposit to lend

Low deposit rate makes it a very risky lending business, not necessarily a pyramid scheme

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