Nokia: "We will not adopt Windows Phone environment as it is seen today" | Hacker News Reader

Nokia: "We will not adopt Windows Phone environment as it is seen today"

arcticstartup.com

61 pointsvilpponen53 comments

Seems like there are a lot of Nokia people doing a lot of rationalizing about whether Nokia's the top or bottom in their new relationship with Microsoft. Exhibit A:

"In this question [Kai Öistämö of Nokia] revealed that Microsoft has actually partnered with Nokia to include Nokia Maps in all their service platforms."

Sure it did.

Regarding the UI customization, this is just delusional-slash-magical thinking that is par for the course with makers of commodity products under the thumb of their commodifier-master. They're always thinking that their "value add" is going to make them stand out when in fact it makes them like one more art student with dyed hair in the oh-so-individual clone army: interchangeably weird.

"Interchangeably weird": that is a great description of extreme individualism!

My take on this- how much can they really modify here and make sure they don't break compatibility with the 3rd party apps? If things were not so dire that they needed to dump a platform they have years invested in, is it really smart(arrogant?) to think that the OS that has actually shipped and seems to be pretty good is not good enough for them?

My take on this is that they want to differentiate it enough to make it more "Nokia-like". However, what this means concretely - is still unknown.

Also, my guess is that they will announce something on this the coming summer, well before Nokia world in September.

(edited for repetition of words)

In reality, it seems like they are going in the opposite direction: Microsoft has actually partnered with Nokia to include Nokia Maps in all their service platforms

Since Windows Phone is based on .NET, a lot of changes can be made by Nokia without breaking compatibility with third party applications, e.g. .NET allows multiple versions of a library to exist simultaneously for different applications because it was architected with backwards and forwards compatibility in mind.

.NET isn't what allows that to happen, though, since, AFAIK, MS has not committed to binary compatibility between .NET versions. While the framework makes it easier to leverage these features(you can still use it with non-managed C++ but it's quite annoying to get working), the Windows kernel is what allows the multiple versions to exist.

In the case of .NET, it's the side-by-side deployment of the .NET runtimes that allow multiple versions to be present on the system at the same time.

> the Windows kernel is what allows the multiple versions to exist.

I don't think you know what the Windows kernel does. Multiple library versions have nothing to do with the kernel because 1) the kernel doesn't know anything about libraries, 2) the kernel doesn't do userspace binary loading (even for completely unmanaged code), and 3) the kernel does nothing at all with .NET.

Side-by-side deployment of binaries is actually completely separate from the functionality in .NET that allows multiple versions, which is the GAC (Global Assembly Cache); SxS binaries (which are used by unmanaged code) are completely separate, although they both reference their respective binaries via manifest files.

Interesting point, but the net result is the same.

"Secondly, another big client of the company, the operators, unanimously voted for a partnership with Microsoft as this will bring a third contender to the marketplace."

That sentence stood out the most from that article. For Nokia to say they choose this partnership because the operators want another choice seems insane to me. Basically I am interpreting that to mean the operators want more platforms to help give them leverage when negotiating with phone manufactures. Which could potential hurt Nokia in the future too.

Am I reading to much into this, or does Nokia's logic there strike anyone else as funny too?

No what this means is that the operators don't want to be stuck with Android vs. iOS; they would prefer a strong third option, which would be Nokia/MS.

Back in 2006, operators used to have dozens of manufacturers of smartphones at their disposal each with relatively weak OS platforms (RIM/Blackberry being the top at the time).

Then the iPhone came out and disrupted that market by offering the iOS platform. Then Android matured (using some iOS cues) and became the 2nd leading platform.

Right now, the third platform (Blackberry) is getting weaker by the day, while WP7 is not gaining traction. So a combined Nokia/MS could provide a strong 3rd option for worldwide operators.

None of this makes sense unless Nokia is the preferred manufacturer for Microsoft and not just another commoditized handset maker of Windows phones.

WP7 UI/UX looks very good. I don't think UI is the strongest strength in Nokia phones so I don't know how they can improve on that... Probably better integration with OVI apps/maps ? Or they can make it worse to be more Nokia-like?

Given that Nokia owns Navteq, my interpretation of "Microsoft has actually partnered with Nokia to include Nokia Maps in all their service platforms" is that Microsoft will use Navteq data everywhere.

Microsoft's big sell to developers has been freedom from device targeting. I'd be very surprised if they allow Nokia to change any fundamental elements, including Live Tiles and Notifications.

What many people probably don't know is that Nokia started as a company manufacturing paper in 1868, it moved into electricity generation, footwear, etc before creating the first phone in 1960s (100 years after it started). It is hard to find a company that survived this long in business.

I wish they do well, but the MS path does not seem right.

Now that's what I call, "pivoting"!

My first phone was a Nokia. My subsequent phones were Nokia too. All these phones predate the iPhone era. Nokia's phone were rock solid. One even survived a fall from the first floor with minor scratches. But their interface was one of the clumsiest; inconsistent, not very user friendly and sometimes not very usable. The only two things I remember doing is messaging and phone calls. I haven't got my hands on a WP7 yet. But judging by my ZuneHD I'm sure the interface must be very good. So far I was hoping that the deal would bring a solid phone with a pretty interface to the market. But now it's obvious, it's going to be another superb phone spoiled by the OS and the interface.

> In the video Öistämö goes over once more why Nokia decided to partner with Microsoft ...

A couple $billion reasons come to mind right off the top of my head.

I don't understand the negative and suspicious comments. How is this different from HTC Sense and Samsung TouchWiz in Android phones?

People have positive feelings toward W7P even if only because it is novel UI-wise. People don't have positive feelings toward Nokia's UI work... let's just say that.

Oh yes I agree, the UIs are horrible. I think Nokia wants and needs to make current Nokia users happy with the new phones by implementing "Nokiaisms" (even though the underlying OS will change).

As I was one of the suspicious comments, to me it sounds like they are going to ruin something which I believe is very very good.

Can't say anything about Sense or TouchWiz though, never tried any of them.

Sense and Touchwiz fragment the UI and generally lag more compared to stock Android UI. On top of that, it takes them ages to port the UI skins to the latest Android version which delays the upgrades by several months

It's not the UI which is fairly high-level code. See the Android source code for the default Launcher application. What takes time is porting a new Android distribution and kernel to that custom hardware of yours, test all of your hardware-facing kernel code again completely, and make sure your kernel ABI can still talk sensibly with your userspace counterparts since things and APIs might have changed since the last Android version.

I don't think anyone is saying it's that much different. To me, that's what makes it suspicious. Sense, MotoBlur, & TouchWiz all fragment the android platform, break/change certain view widgets, and lag behind the major release. If you've ever written an android application, you probably remember how you have to remember to set the fonts, colors, font sizes, and just about every property of every widget just to make sure your app looks consistent. WP7 being brand new has the same advantage that iOS does. You don't have to guess what you're UI will look like on someone's phone because they all have the same environment. On Android, it's absurd.

[Edit]

I'll take this a step further and say that this is at least one of the reasons that there aren't as many high quality apps in the Android Market. Though, there are obviously several more.

Nokia, an agonizing downward spiral into irrelevance.

I wouldn't consider 30%+ percent of the global mobile phone market irrelevant. There market share is, in fact, up in the 4th quarter of 2010 according to Wikipedia.

This won't end well. If they can't communicate a clear focus that doesn't change or require expanding on the details further, they probably don't have one.

These are interesting comments from Nokia in the light of their partnership with Microsoft. Most likely this would mean Nokia will change the UI of the Windows Phone environment to their taste.

Secondly: According to Nokia, Microsoft will be adopting Ovi Maps to all their services in the future.

This should be clarified as I would like to invest on the WP7 platform due to Nokia being pushing it on their upcoming mobile phones. I was expecting them to have some success if they didn't change anything at all on WP7 but this makes me think otherwise...

Umm.. Live tiles are a huge part of windows phone dev environment. Not sure you could change much on the home screen.

Maybe rounded corners? But why bother?

What Nokia needs right now is to get phones out into the market now. The more they delay the more they lose mind share. They are not letting go of the "we know how to write an OS" mentality. Sure they can do it but they went with Microsoft because they don't want to. They should just slap the OS on to their phones and start pushing them out.

Also the current Windows UI is pretty damn good (from what I heard) so not sure what they want to do more.

Well, I don't mind much as long there's no fragmentation of the developer experience. But given Nokia's previous forays into UI development, I think it's best that they leave it to MS.

> I think it's best that they leave it to MS.

If they do it, they'll be a commodity phone maker and will have to compete in price with other WP7 phone makers. All three of them.

> All three of them.

Three? There's atleast 4 in the US, HTC, Samsung, LG and Dell.

Fair enough. All four of them.

How many do they need ?

They have the two largest smartphone manufacturers outside of Apple and RIM, in HTC and Samsung.

Among the large manufacturers, all they are missing is Sony Ericsson and Motorola. And I believe only Motorola has hinted that they are Android only.

And Nokia is still larger (not for long) than #2 and #3 in terms of worldwide sales.

Actually, they could line up a couple dozen WP7 phone manufacturers and still fail. What they need is not manufacturers, but people buying and using the phones. This is not happening.

They also need developers creating content for the platform, which isn't happening either. Chicken and an egg there, though.

>They also need developers creating content for the platform, which isn't happening either. Chicken and an egg there, though

It is, WP7 marketplace already has around 15,000 apps and is growing faster than the iPhone and Android stores at a similar stage.

If they don't, past experience suggests they'll end up with smartphones that no one in North America will want to buy.

> they'll end up with smartphones that no one in North America will want to buy.

It's not like everyone in NA wants to buy a WP7 phone now. If they change the UI enough, maybe someone will want it.

I don't disagree. I just haven't seen any evidence from Nokia, based on their own UIs, that they can make the WP7 UI more desirable, rather than less or the same.

Having the choice between 100% certain doom and 95% certain doom, I'd go for the second. Just not very enthusiastically.

I think this argument could go either way. As a "commodity" WP7 phone maker, Nokia might be able to get 20% of the WP7 market on brand recognition alone. But a crappified version of WP7 might earn them 0% of the market instead.

As someone who values a fairly broad oligarchy of phone ecosystems, I'm frightened that Nokia will have 20% of a WP7 market that is perhaps a little more than one or two million devices per year, and stagnant.

WP7 (or 8 for that matter) isn't going to be helped in this kind of scenario by a bleeding vendor that can't sell more than a few hundred thousand devices. As consumers, we're not going to be helped by the death-by-a-thousand-downsizings of Nokia (a business that has a good record otherwise of innovation in technology and market development, at least until the last few years) and a side show of a user community that can't support development of innovative software and business models.

SO in other words Nokia gets to screw up another mobile interface, SWEET!

If nobody uses it, will it really be screwed?

At the moment, I believe it is only the Android phones which sport GPS. (Although Nokia feature phones already have Ovimaps). Bringing maps to the table means WP7 will be on par with Android on such a basic feature.

Does this mean MS has basically bought themselves a mapping company for a couple billion dollars? On top of it, they've secured a solid brand with a good distribution channel and pre-existing relationship with carriers. It sounds like a good deal for MS to me.

As for who is going to be dictating who, I believe Nokia is mistaken. MS will drive the relationship because MS owns the platform, not Nokia. This is something even HP and Samsung realizes. I'm surprised Nokia has palmed off Symbian to Accenture so quickly. Perhaps this is to shake out the management tree a little bit.

I'm pretty sure that all phone makers have had good GPS for years. And MS has bing already. http://www.bing.com/maps/

My Nokia has GPS.

It is several years old.

>At the moment, I believe it is only the Android phones which sport GPS.

Huh, almost every smartphone from the last 4 years sport GPS. What the agreement means is that Bing maps will be able to use Ovi maps in places where it's currently lacking, i.e Europe and Asia.

I think what 'teyc' meant was that Android is the only platform that offers free turn by turn navigation among the major platforms.

Nokia has provided this recently with their version of Ovi Maps as well (not sure if it's free on all S60 devices). So it is possible that the Ovi Maps & Bing Maps integration may include bringing the free turn by turn navigation to Windows Phone 7.

Thanks.

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