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Comment by blunte | Hacker News Reader

Too bad in the Netherlands we are hamstrung by an asinine law that considers a 2-wheel scooter (called a "step" here) to be the same as a 4-wheel cart that carries children (called a "stint").

This law was prompted by an accident where a person driving children in an electric cart crossed train tracks into the path of an oncoming train, and 4 children were killed.

Electric 2-wheel scooters would be perfect for a lot of places in NL - places where there is already a shortage of bike parking, and places where if you park and lock your bike outside, it _will_ be stolen if it is halfway nice. At least with a folding scooter, you can take it inside with you easily. Plus you can take it onto a bus, which is not possible with a bike.

Normally the Dutch are pretty thoughtful about their approach to laws, but this one just makes no sense.

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In the current day and age it might be helpful to explicitly mention the non-electric nature of the scooters you are talking about. I had to re-read everything from the point where you start talking about carrying the thing inside.

How about revising law enforcement to a point where property rights don't have a de-facto exception for bicycles? Somehow, enforcement of property rights works quite well (not perfect, but well enough) for just about any property that can be legally stored on public ground, just bicycles are an exception. Thought experiment: steal a bike and steal the equivalent value of that bike in cash and imagine the reactions of executive, judicative when the theft gets noticed. It would almost be as if legislatives had added an "except bikes" paragraph to all laws about property ownership.

I tried to explain with the whole step=scooter thing, but clearly I failed. Many of the comments seem to be assuming I am talking about low-end motorcycles.

To be clear, however, I was talking about small folding electric inline 2-wheel stand-on devices.

As for theft, that's a huge and growing problem with bikes. That's another reason to dissuade me from having a decent bike that would encourage me to commute (although work from home now solves that). A folding bike or 2-wheel step scooter would have worked perfectly for me when I was commuting via foot, train, bus, and then foot each way to and from work.

> As for theft, that's a huge and growing problem with bikes. That's another reason to dissuade me from having a decent bike that would encourage me to commute

What expensive features do you need?

Almost half a million bikes were stolen in 2019 in NL, and there are reports of organized groups specifically targeting e-bikes now.

But in general, any bike that doesn't look like it could sell for 15 euros on the street is a target. The nicer it looks, the more likely a target.

If you're out on the streets often enough at night, you'll inevitably be approached by someone offering to sell you his bike for cheap. Hint: it's not his bike. But the nicer bikes get sent off and sold elsewhere.

Most people I know either keep their bike in their house at night, or they just accept the reality and buy old crappy bikes that they won't cry over when they go missing.

But the expensive features I would like are a comfy but light saddle, a light but sturdy frame (double butted steel tubing), belt drive, and ideally a small motor/battery combo for times when the wind really sucks. Since you asked. Christmas is coming up soon :).

> Somehow, enforcement of property rights works quite well (not perfect, but well enough) for just about any property that can be legally stored on public ground, just bicycles are an exception.

like what? the only thing I can think of that wouldn't be immediately stolen if left outside is a car. I don't find that cops care much about auto theft either. the main reason cars don't get stolen too often is because the VIN is associated with an owner and a license plate. police don't have to actively pursue car thieves to make it not worthwhile. I don't think any such system exists for bicycles, and I'm not sure it would be desirable anyway. "ownership" of a bicycle and other items of similar value can usually be transferred with an exchange of cash and a firm handshake, which seems about right to me.

They should be banned.

The vast majority of them drive completely irresponsibly. They go at least twice as fast as the bikes on the bike lanes so they're constantly going in the middle of the lane into oncoming traffic. I've lost track of how many times I've had to swerve on my bike because someone comes right towards me.

The Netherlands does not actually have bike lanes. It has shared moped/scooter/bike lanes.

Its an issue. Bikes - 8mph. Scooters - 16mph. Cars - 30-40mph. None should be on the same path as the others. Yet we have just 2 paths.

Add in pedestrians - 2mph and now what? Its a hard problem.

There are three clearly distinct paths practically everywhere in the Netherlands: roads, bike paths and sidewalks.

That means the bikes, cars and pedestrians are already separated.

The mopeds/scooters (who go up to 45kmh / ~28 mph) are the only ones who don't fit in. That why they're constantly switching between roads, bike paths and sidewalks.

aren't moped expected to just drive on the main road, next to cars, and require a helmet and license plate?

Scooters are "more different".

Dutch law has two classes of 'moped'- both were originally conceived as motor-assisted pedal cycles, but in practice both are now mostly Vespa-type scooters with no option to pedal.

Both require insurance and an 'insurance plate' which is a different format from the standard licence plate seen on motorcycles. The rider must be licensed, but this can be either a car or a motorcycle licence (or a moped-specific licence which can be obtained from the age of 16, compared to 18 for cars and motorcycles).

The 'snorfiets' scooters have blue number plates, and are legally supposed to be limited to 25 km/h. The rider does not need to wear a helmet.

The 'bromfiets' scooters, with yellow number plates, are legally supposed to be limited to 45 km/h, but the rider must wear a helmet.

(In practice most scooters seem to routinely go much faster than they are supposed to be capable of)

In general, both types of scooter can use some, but not all, bike paths. A snorfiets is allowed on more bike paths than a bromfiets is- bromfietsen must ride on the main road in built-up areas.

All I can say is that the reality is that they come right at me on the bike path on the wrong side of the rode at 16+ mph. Every single time I go biking.

Whatever rules exists here exist on paper only.

I can understand. When vehicles of different cruising speeds share a roadway, the faster ones are perpetually passing. So always oncoming straight at you. It gets worse with increasing density - instead of passing occasionally, now you're passing pretty much all the time.

Its a hard problem to solve.

Mixed traffic is a problem that every freakin heavy industrial site in the world has managed to solve.

We just can't solve it for cities because people have their heads up their asses and everyone wants their preferred class of traffic to get preferential treatment.

How was it solved? Consider that a designed environment is different from a built-up city with paths intended for horse-and-carriage.

By cautious rules and the ability to fire anybody who didn't follow them.

That works very well. Much better that distracted drivers and speeders.

But rules and people don't get along that well. Folks get tired and impatient. Even in the industrial environment there are expected failures per 100,000 hours etc.

Still, agreed we'd all do better with a more professional class of driver and licensing.

Ebikes and smaller scooters seem to have standarized at 16mph (25kph). That is perfectly compatible with bike lanes. A bike in a hurry can easily go over that.

Imperfectly compatible. Sure bikes can go that fast, but rarely do. The disparity in average speed results in frequent passing which is most of the problem. Head-on collisions and clipping become a thing. That's kind of the whole ball game, and why they don't get along on paths.

Almost no bikes actually go that fast, while the scooters practically always do, which is they they drive in the middle of the lanes or into oncoming traffic. Thus head on collisions etc.

It depends on your local bike culture I guess. In the US scooters go 15mph and bikes go like 12mph if you are in street clothes, ~20mph if you are in spandex.

Even in lanes explicitly stated as bikes-only, people don't give a shit. In Amsterdam it's particularly bad with the delivery drivers who're in a rush all the time.

In the US there used to be "ticket quotas" in some police departments. Near the end of a period, there could be cops everywhere checking for speeders if they were under quota.

The Dutch police could make a good revenue just from targeting food delivery guys. Excluding the newer e-bike delivery people, they are almost always speeding and driving like they just robbed a bank.

Indeed. Seems what's lacking is political will.

Do you believe in just banning things because people use them irresponsibly?

I think that is much more damaging than one person getting 4 kids dead, as much as this is already a tragedy.

Going with this reasoning people should be banned from using cars at all, because, frankly, I see a huge number of people driving completely irresponsibly and not thinking a whole lot about it until an accident happens.

Do we really want to live in a world where it is not possible to behave irresponsibly because all options were taken off the table?

> Do you believe in just banning things because people use them irresponsibly?

No, I believe in banning things when the vast majority use them irresponsibly.

That demonstrates that it's just not something we're capable of handling.

Or that we need a licence to drive them. Personally I think there should be the equivalent to a driver's licence for both ebikes and scooters.

But it would kill the industry if it was enforced now, so I hope we will get it later once people actually got the taste for it and want to continue using them even if they need to get a licence.

License has much more sense than outright ban.

I don't care for the "industry". They must adapt. Driving car requires license but the industry is still there.

But the licence came years after the car, that's exactly the point

>Do we really want to live in a world where it is not possible to behave irresponsibly because all options were taken off the table?

I lived in Singapore for a few years and that pretty much is that world and I was very happy. Don't really see the problem with banning things that people cannot stop to use irresponsibly and that cause loss of life, including cars. (well technically they're not banned, a license is just hard to get, 10% or so own a car).

Build good public transport, walkable cities, done. I mean have you actually considered how mental it is that we let people roam around in two tons of metal at high velocity next to pedestrians just to buy a bag of groceries. If people look back at this in 500 years we'll look like crazy cavemen

You should live by your own principles. Get rid of all knives in your kitchen. Because one was just used in France to behead a person.

Does this ultimatum still make sense?

The knifes in my kitchen only I have access to and I know I'm not going to behead anyone. However I live by my principles and I have no problems with banning knives in public, or vendors securing them. (which is relatively common around the world btw, see Japan, UK, much of Europe etc..)

I worked for Samsung. Some guys in Korea got into heated discussion and carved each other with kitchen knives available in the office. Guess what, no kitchen knives other than plastic.

Here in Poland people just started bringing their own EDC knives.

Are you for or against gun ownership?

I would rather be run into by a guy who is riding a light electric step rather than a heavy middle aged man zooming along on a heavy electric bike.

Not sure you would know the difference. Hit at 20MPH differential speed is a lights-out moment.

Sure you would. It's a matter of masses. If I were a brick wall, you could hit me at 30 and you would probably take the worst of the exchange.

If we are both of equal size and mass, the damage will be approximately shared.

Of course if you were a brick wall, those two things are the same. Instantly accelerating to zero. If you were a moving brick wall, that's different.

But my comment is this: 20MPH is fast. The damage is grievous. Dead or nearly dead.

I am referring to the little foldable two wheel platform vehicles as scooters. I am not championing the motorcycle things.

Outside NL, the "step" is a scooter, and the "scooter" is a moped.

Mopeds should be banned from bike paths, or there should be heavy enforcement of speed limits on paths.

A little folding 2 wheel platform vehicle going 16kph is certainly no worse than a large Dutchman riding the same speed on a 35kg omafiets... not to mention the person on a 40kg electric bike who is doing 23kph.

> A little folding 2 wheel platform vehicle going 16kph is certainly no worse than a large Dutchman riding the same speed on a 35kg omafiets

A light bike doing 16 kph will knock you down but not seriously injure you unless you're unlucky.

Mopeds are doing more like 16 mph (25kmh) and easily weigh 70+ kg. That's a fast and heavy chunk of metal. If that hits you, you will be badly injured or killed. That changes the stakes of the bike paths from scraped knees to death or brain injury.

As I have tried to explain throughout my comments, I am referring to what the Dutch call a "step" - like what Bird has been putting in cities around the world. I am absolutely not talking about mopeds (small motorcycles).

I very much do not want motorycles or mopeds or even fast electric bikes (which can weigh nearly as much as the rider) on bike paths. A scooter/step weighs about 15kg, and more importantly, most of its weight is very close to the ground. It might knock your feet out from under you if it hit you, but it won't crush your ribs or head unless you're already lying on the ground.

That’s how I ride. Would you rather I was in a big truck?

I thought they were different things. A Stint comes under the 'bijzondere bromfiets' category, the same as a Segway (which remains legal on Dutch roads). Each individual model of vehicle in this category has to be specifically approved by the government for use on the roads.

After the 2018 accident (in which the brakes failed for an unknown reason), the Stint lost its specific approval. Officially there wasn't any effect on any other vehicle in the category, though I can imagine that it might have made the government more reluctant to approve new models- no electric folding scooters have yet been approved.

In the meantime, I think the best option is a folding bike, electric or otherwise.

This is not the only source (at some time several months ago I did more research), but here: https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/01/electric-mini-scooters...

Folding bike is indeed the best legal option if one wants to ever ride a bus also, but even the nicest ($$$$) folding bikes are so much less portable than a step.

That makes sense- I didn't realise they had tightened the rules after the Stint accident.

I doubt we will get used to people taking their vehicles inside. I agree about the law being a bit silly though. Getting run over by a train can happen regardless of your vehicle of transportation.

Though it depends where you are, busses don't have the space to carry a lot of people with foldables. They'd need to be redesigned for such. I saw a Xiaomi foldable e-bike announced the other day for 1k USD, but then I saw this already exists. There's a lot of people driving around on 2-wheel e-bike (non foldable) as well these days. Today I even saw a kid on one going to school.

E-bikes are the worst thing on Dutch cycling paths. I experienced them for two years. People speeding irresponsibility on these things going 40kph and practically inaudible. They just zoom past you and you're completely unaware of their presence until the last couple of meters. A big danger to cyclists, moped riders and pedestrians.

There are two types of ebikes, and the law draws a distinction between them. There are pedlecs (25kmph) and s-pedlecs (45kmph).

The s-pedlecs have a license plate and are illegal on most cycle lanes. The only place where they would be legally allowed next to regular bicycles/pedlecs would be outside the cities, on the "bike highways".

Unfortunately there is zero enforcement. Either there would have to be a massive amount of police controlling how people drive, or they have to be banned.

I don't think I've ever seen the 45km/h version on bicycle paths though. The 25km/h versions have similar problems as described, so I'm guessing they were what was referred to, but they definitely don't go that fast.

Depends where you live I suppose. Some areas are perfectly fine. Mine unfortunately has a lot of social issues.

I have never seen a speed pedlec on a bike lane inside the city. I can't even remember the last time I saw one in the city generally speaking, as they don't seem to be extremely popular.

There used to be a way bigger problem with enforcing of scooters in the bike paths, though that is now way less of an issue, as far as I can tell. The only scooters legally allowed on bike lanes are the ones limited to 25kmph. I still find them dangerous, but considerably less so than how it was a few years back.

NYC has a similar issue of e-bikes (really electric scooters capable of roughly 45kmph/25mph) in bike lanes.

It's annoying as a cyclist, but it's still much preferable to having to share space with automobiles.

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