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Comment by joshenders | Hacker News Reader

Wow, this needs to be more widely discussed. This is eye opening. I’ve definitely seen this “dance” going on between new Indian coworkers and could detect there was some shared knowledge I was missing but had no idea what it meant, what was going on, or if it was friendly or not.

(Especially the vegetarian question and asking if “that was out of choice or cultural”. I figured this was dog whistling to religious affiliation and felt uncomfortable about it but regrettably just stayed out of it.)

I want to apologize to my Indian coworkers and especially directs, that I was so naive to this. You absolutely do not deserve this kind of treatment anywhere but especially the US and immigration status really compounds this and makes this oppressive.

I am absolutely going to be more aware and diligent about this and raise flags when I see it going forward. Not okay. I am so sorry.

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I have witnessed this as well, and it has been absolutely shocking and disgusting. Here is my experience. I am leading a meeting with about four native Indians that were here in America, and a couple that were dialed in from India. The meeting was with a large US based financial institution. Towards the end of the call, a senior member of the team joined. The mood of the meeting changed entirely. Everyone on the call kept asking for his opinion and what he thought, and he had nothing to add and no context about anything we had been discussing. I thought that was weird, and then started googling their last names and caste systems in India on a hunch. Yep, it was the reason, I deduced. I have no proof, but if I were a betting man... I always thought the highest castes in India were religious, so it seems like this is a battle between the castes lower than that. Regardless, there is no place for this in America.

> I thought that was weird, and then started googling their last names and caste systems in India on a hunch.

You saw people asking for opinions from a senior member and your first thought was casteism? How does one even make that leap?

Let me clarify my point here. It was not that I 'saw people asking for opinions', it was the whole interaction. Literally, is was shocking. The silence, the agreement, and everything else. People that had made a point before were afraid to express it. People that were speaking did not speak anymore. The incorrect path was taken, and it was not the first time I've seen this behavior. I look up everything I suspect online, and I don't think that's making a leap. It is simply using tools available to shine a light on the truth.

"Especially the vegetarian question"

That question has nothing to do with Caste specifically. It is more of a thing between North and South Indians where North Indians are usually more of a meat eater than South but again it depends on the region. Plenty of North Indians are hardcore Vegetarian. It has nothing to do with caste or religious affiliation. Being a vegetarian in general is looked down upon even in America, isn't it ? Go watch the movie "escape plan" where schwarzenegger says "You hit like a vegetarian". Also the vegetarian question comes up with Indians because it is difficult to go to a non Indian Restaurant with hardcore vegetarians as they may not find many options. So when a group of Indian coworkers go out to eat, they have to know who are hardcore vegetarians and choose a restaurant accordingly.

Asking the question tells the intent of it. Thats where it starts. All discriminations start with innocuous questions only.

I am not saying caste discrimination doesn't exist. But as an Indian American living in the United States for 20 years, I can tell you that I have never seen/experienced/practiced it here in the US and I will not let anyone do it either on my team (I run a company) or personal family/friends. Having said that, it is a very common joke among a group of Indians when they get together about the whole "vegetarian" vs "non vegetarian" thing. You can argue that it is bad to joke about this topic but it has nothing to do with caste or religion. That's what I am saying.

Are you yourself higher caste? Being a member of the group that isn't discriminated against frequently makes it harder to see the discrimination. My wife is Indian-American, and her parents are a mixed-caste marriage; I've seen caste bias between her own relatives, even though they're all in the US and have been since the 1970s.

You not experiencing it does not mean it does not exist. Please see other instances besides "vegetarian" argument where it is blatant.

This is simply mind boggling!!

>That question has nothing to do with Caste specifically.

It has everything to do with Caste specifically. This is the question we often get when upper caste folk are not able to figure out our caste from the names.

>So when a group of Indian coworkers go out to eat, they have to know who are hardcore vegetarians and choose a restaurant accordingly.

Do you know why this happens? The vegetarians consider non-vegetarians as 'impure'. They want to follow their tradition of not eating in an 'impure' place. This is one of the main forms of discrimination that lower castes face.

pls read this to understand that not so hidden meaning behind the word 'non-vegetarian'

https://www.dailyo.in/variety/non-veg-food-iit-bombay-vegeta...

Not sure if you know, but there are 'Upper Castes' that eat Non-Vegetarian food. Asking someone if they are vegetarian or not, just to ascertain their caste would be a dumb thing to do, especially when you can know someone's caste from their last name (and maybe some googling on top, if you really really wanted to know their caste)

I have a shellfish allergy. I am also high caste Brahmin. Me asking about people’s dietary preferences before going to a restaurant would make me a casteist?

It is absolutely true that some pure vegetarians consider anything that has been in contact with meat to be "impure", though the extent to which they insist upon this varies. Eg if the cook has handled meat, the pure vegetarian might insist the cook washes their hands thoroughly before preparing the vegetarian's food. I've seen pure vegetarians in Subway restaurants ask the cook to change their gloves before making their sandwich.

But it's wrong to assume that by default every pure vegetarian extends this concept of "impure" to the non-vegetarian person, let alone discriminates against non-vegetarians. I don't doubt that some people do it, but it is by no means universal. To ascribe this ulterior motive to every Indian that asks another Indian about their vegetarianism is just silly. It's just a conversation-starter, an ice-breaker, because pure-vegetarianism is so common in India in the first place. And is useful when choosing restaurants for group lunches.

Especially if we're talking about Indians living in the US, treating non-vegetarians like untouchables is going to be a very hard task for them, unless they don't interact with anyone who isn't Indian either. Is it possible? Sure. Is it the norm? Absolutely not.

Segregation based on caste is the way of life. Its also the reason why arranged marriages exist. To maintain caste purity. If you notice something clearly the only ones who are denying caste discrimination are the upper castes.

They are getting uncomfortable because the white people are learning about it.

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