Hacker News Reader

Comment by tokenadult | Hacker News Reader

The number one problem that I see with American immigration from an economic perspective is that it's simply too hard to immigrate here (legally), and most especially as a highly educated or highly skilled person.

Is there somewhere else where immigration is much easier than the United States? If so, where? Have you ever thought of living there?

View on HN

Well, back when I would have been in a position to consider living somewhere else, I was a minor. And since I've been in the US from age six and am functionally American for all practical purposes, obviously, like most people, I am not possessed with the desire to uproot myself and relocate without a compelling reason.

You seem to be clinging to relative arguments throughout the comments. I agree that it's important to keep the overall merits of the US relative to many alternatives in perspective, yes. But relative arguments only go so far. Yes, I could be in a refugee camp in Darfur; doubtless, my situation--almost anyone's situation--could be a lot worse than the espresso machine breaking down or the laundromat being inconveniently far away. But it doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to complain about absolute inadequacies of the system, or advocate for its improvement.

I'm 100 percent for people from anywhere in the world, even people who have never seen the United States, advocating for improvement of policies in the United States. Policy improvement is a great idea, and I was happy to have it happen in the United States even during the several years of my life when I wasn't living here.

But I ask about the policies of other places, and what attractions those set up for immigrants, for a policy-based reason. Most public policies cannot be set to be ideal in the abstract. Indeed, there is not even enough agreement among voters to be sure what the abstract ideal of perfect policy would look like. Every country in every era, democracy or dictatorship, makes policy trade-offs. I think the discussion of United States policy can be best informed--and thus most helpful to the United States, the country I now live in--if people like you with valuable international perspective are as specific as possible in comparing United States policies to policies of other countries you know about. As I wrote in the first reply I posted in this thread, there ought to be official statistics on many of the issues mentioned in the article that opened this thread, and those official statistics from various governments may guide us better to understand what policy trade-offs make for a thriving economy, well functioning democracy and rule of law, and an open and vibrant society.

Fair enough. That seems like a very well-reasoned position.

My worry with your argument (if I'm following correctly) is why should we compare/base US immigration policy on the policy of other nations? If we accept that US policy is more favorable than others, is it purely acceptable to meet the lowest bar? I'd argue we should always, in all facets of policy and life, be actively working to raise the bar.

Canada, Australia, most countries with a points based immigration system are much easier. My story was much like the grandparents. Moved to the US at 14 and bounced around between visas H4 -> F1 -> H1B. I didn't get my green card with the rest of my family because I turned 21 while the application was pending. I am in Europe now and will NEVER deal with US immigration again. There is truly nothing that will make me want to live in that limbo again.

Yes, immigrating to Finland or Ireland is way easier than States (at least if you are in IT).

Problem with Ireland right now is bad economy, difficult to find a job, but possible. Finland is much easier. And in both countries you become a citizen after 5-6 years.

Oh, and you don't need to know finnish to work in IT here.

Also I've heard Sweden and Australia is not that hard either. Canada was quite easy to get into up until few months ago (they removed IT from the needed professions list).

Basically, from what I've heard from my fellow Russian friends, States is not that favorable in terms of immigration.

> Is there somewhere else where immigration is much easier than the United States

Once my Italian wife and I were married, I acquired the right to stay in Italy from that moment on, with no hassles. The amount of paperwork for her, on the other hand, to go to the US, is quite unpleasant, and the process would even involve a doctor having a look at her. And she has a PhD in biochemistry (she's employable in other words) and is the wife and mother of US citizens.

I wouldn't ever cite Italy as a model for the ease of its bureaucratic procedures, but in this specific case, Italy does come out ahead of the US.

Is there somewhere else where immigration is much easier than the United States?

As a data point, I applied for Permanent Residency as part of the Australian Independent Immigration program in 2000. The processing took about 8 months, then I was granted a permanent visa, then I moved to Australia in 2001 and became a citizen after two years (this has been since changed to four years and the application processing times also may vary, from what I know - 2001 was one of the "good" years).

> Is there somewhere else where immigration is much easier than the United States?

Yes. The rest of the Western world.

> Have you ever thought of living there?

Currently in New Zealand, was in Australia.

Got citizenship after being a resident for 3 years.

No limbo either, residence was not tied to a particular employer.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com