The Black Hole Information Paradox Comes to an End
quantamagazine.org
quantamagazine.org
Ah yes, the complex of wormhole interlinked blackholes surrounded by mists of Hawking radiation...
This style of writing, without the actual math, seems to more so obscure true understanding than reveal it for such a complex construct as english words are very likely insufficient for actually capturing the true meaning.
Adding the (partial?) equations of the path integral and/or the matrices would allow for an actual understanding without the confining nature of human words.
In fact just thinking and writing this comment made me more confused, just a few paragraphs prior the path integral could not be fully calculated, but now here it is certain that "the gravitational path integral doesn’t distinguish replicas from a real black hole". Just how powerful is this 'mathematical trick'?
Go read the paper if you want that. Quanta isn't a journal its a popular science mag.
So it does not seem that the physicists fully understand their calculation results either.
Edit: here's the arxiv link: https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.11977
Edit: I was finally able to find links to actual papers in the article:
https://arxiv.org/abs/1810.02055
https://arxiv.org/abs/1905.08255
https://arxiv.org/abs/1905.08762
https://arxiv.org/abs/1908.10996
https://arxiv.org/abs/2002.08950
https://arxiv.org/abs/2004.05863
These appear to be the papers giving the various calculations the article discusses. There are also links to some previous work that was built on:
https://arxiv.org/abs/0804.0055
That's not to say it is definitely not useful! It could be that, for some bizarre reason, reading the mathematical tea leaves of our current incomplete (and incoherent) theories might well yield insight into post-quantum physics. I do doubt it though.
Why do you believe that?
Depends what you mean though. Define "computer".
The definition you are looking for is very well established and intensely studied in physics and theoretical computer science. This is a good place to start a wikipedia exploration of the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church%E2%80%93Turing_thesis
What? The real numbers, with all the uncomputable reals included, are used in every corner of physics, not just in string theory. There is no treatment of calculus (with any semblance of popularity) that does not feature the usual real line.
This confuses Platonists who seem to believe that differential equations really exist - somewhere.
But that's like arguing that you will clock up air miles by zooming around Google Maps.
The set of operations you can perform on representations of reality is in no sense identical to the set of operations you can perform on reality itself.
If this still isn't obvious, try to differentiate a rock.
I also wish that the person I initially replied to would expand on their vague claim that
> Fortunately a new generation of smart people, with intuitions honed on computers, is well placed to capitalize on this arbitrage opportunity.
First of all, there is no application of physics where uncomputable reals make one bit of difference. Unpopular treatments of Calculus that only deal with computable numbers exist and produce the same results for physics.
Secondly, physicists have a well-known disregard for whether official mathematical constructions support how they are using them. To name but two examples, both the Dirac delta and renormalization were in wide use long before any formalization existed that could justify them.
Given that, there is no way in which the use of mathematics by physics serves as justification for the reality of the obscure mathematical notions that mathematicians have developed.
I'd really appreciate if you named them. I've seen synthetic differential geometry, which isn't nearly well-developed enough for use in all of physics, and I've seen nonstandard analysis, which obviously doesn't do away with the uncomputable reals at all.
> there is no way in which the use of mathematics by physics serves as justification for the reality
I am not saying the standard reals are real. I am saying that they are more convenient than any existing alternative, and fulfil the current needs of all of physics. I am also saying that the parent's claim that "uncomputable numbers … in the guise of string theory obtained a death grip on fundamental physics" is absurd, since string theory and uncomputable reals are pretty much unrelated.
And yes, they are less developed than classical analysis, and harder to work with. But should not produce different results.
(a) you're either wrong or incredibly optimistic regarding our ability to carefully rephrase the statements of classical analysis in a way that works constructively.
(b) what would be the point of a harder-to-use system that offers exactly the same results, anyway? The whole reason I find SDG interesting is that it will eventually be simpler to use, and because it provides an entirely fresh of the number line.
I agree that computation is likely a better model than string theory. However I have the humility to not insist that reality must match any set of concepts that I have.
In particular in this case results like the ones discussed at https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=3827 and https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=4372 say that quantum mechanical systems can perform operations in ways that are different from and fundamentally impossible for classical computers. Therefore it seems likely to me that classical computing is going to break down pretty hard as a model for how things really work.
Also, I will bet 500$ that no one will be able to prove that all physics has a logical and mathematical basis within my lifetime :)
Here is my favorite example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaitin%27s_constant
> if all calculation of physical effects are found to be reducible to mathematical procedure with definite outcomes, then aren't real-world physical effects execution of computation?
There's probably room for semantic disagreements here. It does seem that the definition is somewhat tautological, but I'd claim that that's because the two are equal.
Consider an "analog" computer that is in principle noise-free (i.e. elementary operations like addition on this hardware are performed by adding up two analog quantities, e.g. voltages or currents, and these quantities are infinitely smooth, not discreticized/digital, and not disturbed by hardware imperfections and noise). I can create a model of such a device in theory and if I use only the axioms of classical physics (which we now know are wrong), then such a device will be capable of computing and representing numbers that can not be expressed by a Turing machine (i.e. it would be not just faster than a Turing machine or a quantum computer, it will be capable of things that a Turing machine can not ever do).
This is a device that one can imagine existing, and to quote you it is "reducible to mathematical procedure with definite outcomes". It just happens to be a mathematical procedure we find to be rather unreasonable for our universe (because of unavoidable classical thermal noise and non-classical quantum effects that cause discretization).
Some physicists and computer scientists (me included) like to take this as a starting point, as a reason for why certain theories of physics are probably wrong. I personally find this to be a very elegant, powerful, and subtle approach, up there with Noether's theorem or the second law of thermodynamics. "A theory of physics can not be true if it permits the construction of a computing device that can solve the halting problem" seems pretty much on par with "A theory of physics can not be true if it disobeys conservation laws / causality / locality / entropy considerations". All of this with the caveat that one should not be dogmatic about these vague statements, rather just take them as a general guideline.
Side-question: is computation, by definition, strictly limited to that achievable by a Turing machine?
To the side question, yes, that is a typical definition of "computable" (usually what a CS theorist means by the word). The reason we believe it is a useful practical definition is that (1) such a definition ends up equivalent to a number of other interesting definitions and such a net of equivalences usually ends up being interesting and empowering (2) Turing machines form a "universal" modality of computation because we have proofs that they can "efficiently" simulate other theoretical models of computation (3) We simply do not know of other modalities of computation that can exist in our universe (which is a bit of a circular statement in the context of this conversation) (4) It simply seems to be a useful formalism that enabled us to prove a ton of useful results, so even if it was not as elegant as I claim, it definitely ended up being a productive and practical way of thinking. Side note: Quantum computing muddles the water a bit in terms of what is efficiently computable, but if something is not computable for a Turing machine it is still not computable for a quantum computer (however there are a few things that seem to take exponential time on a Turing machine while taking only polynomial time on quantum computer).
For #1, wasn't speaking of the 'universe as simulation' hypothesis specifically, I think an assertion either way is indefensible. It was more about unpacking semantics, i.e., what is the most reductive form of a computation? Does there need to even be an operator that seeks to know an answer? Is computation something that only exists in human context, or can it simply be the unfolding consequences of the 'seed' of the universe? Just rumination on abstract inconsequential ideas :)
#2. I'm familiar with some of the nomenclature is regards to 'computing' complexity, and my question, in retrospect, seems a little silly. Computation is computation. I still only have a lay understanding -- as much as I need to know for perf and the differences between algorithms -- and I'll have a look at that paper and hopefully understand the subject a little deeper.
Thanks again.
By the way, if you are fan of SciFi, Greg Egan has very fun stories that play with these ideas (nothing rigorous or seriously scientific, but certainly fun).
Lots of things are true that aren't much use. Much of science, including physics doesn't describe computational processes. Does that make most of science and physics equally useless?
"To someone like me, who believes that the universe is, must be, fundamentally a construct of god, the actual academic paper is hardly any better. Whatever the paper is doing is not describing any kind of god process... sounds far more like a kind of liturgical incantation than a description of how god is running our universe."
I might be wrong, my understanding is limited, but you shouldn't dismiss something because it doesn't fit with you beliefs; you beliefs may be wrong g.
Does this mean string theory produced a prediction? I thought it had no predictive power and that's why people didn't like it.
Sounds like there is no dependency on string theory.
The problem with getting predictions out of ST is that you need to find a vacuum (ground state) with 3 macroscopic space dimensions and no scalar fields (except for a Higgs). It is historically done by keeping some supersymmetry (for instance using Calaby Yau Manifolds) to keep the problem mathematically tractable. It is then a problem because no supersymmetry was found at CERN where it should have been (in some models) with this particular Higgs mass.
This however doesn't mean that the theory has nothing to say. For instance AdS/CFT from which this paper uses inspiration was discovered using ST, but is believed to be more general.
Also, i can tell you after working 4 years in the field: I think string theory (theories is more exact, there are at least 6) is incomplete: the part we understand is just a sector of a bigger theory where things are nice and geometric. For instance: many people say you cannot get flat vacuum in ST, this is incorrect some perfectly sound ST's have Minkowskian vacuum.
Now for the hatred of some people against it (including many on this forum): some physicists in the field had big promises that were not kept, and that was a big mistake of them exposing their half-baked models to the public as it was The Solution. ST on Calaby Yau is indeed not the solution. On the other hand people like Lee Smolin and Sabine have overreacted (many times with bad arguments, and i respect their work and some of their criticism but it's not like they have perfect models themselves..) to this and the result ugly: An open war and a beautiful field of physics which is now destroyed by personal egos, collapsing funding and no hope for permanent postions.
Let's be honest, no one understands a thing at this organised mess we call Nature. Not even Witten.
In the end, be it MOND, ST, LQG, etc, etc they are just models, some models have no implementation in the real world but might be useful to improve our understanding of the world, this is how Physics works. It is very sad that people now think of ST vs LQG like one should choose her/his religion, i find them both beautiful theories personally. It's for a reason i left the field i can tell you.
Anyway: Nice result <3
My intuition is that these astronauts would exit the black hole the way a candle exits a flame, i.e., at the atomic or subatomic level, correct?
https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2020/09/21/115-...
He seems a little non-committal if not skeptical.
One telling exchange near the end regarding the gravitational path integral they used:
* * *
"1:18:41 SC: And there is this trick that you can introduce, ’cause what you’re supposed to do is say, well, integrate up all of the spacetimes that match on to this particular wave function you’re looking at. But the trick is, instead of integrating all the four-dimensional spacetimes that match on to this condition you’re looking at, you can just say, well, I’m going to integrate over all four dimensional spaces, so I’m going to forget about spacetime. I’m just going to do what we call the Euclidean path integral because Euclid just talked about space, not time. And…
1:19:13 NE: Oh, you went there. [laughter]
1:19:15 SC: I did, I did. This is where I’m going. And so it was sort of like you could justify… It’s a trick. It’s a mathematical trick. And it’s very rigorously justifiable in certain simple cases in quantum mechanics, and it certainly has the smell of being correct in certain more subtle cases in quantum field theory. In quantum gravity, what they were doing with it, it just seemed to be a trick so they could get a finite answer at the end of the day, and it was very unclear why it had anything to do with the real world, but they suggested it did. Maybe they were right. And since then, I think we’ve become a little more comfortable with the idea that we can use this trick of calculating quantum gravity wave functions by integrating over the Euclidean path integral, the set of all the spaces that end up looking like what we want, instead of all the spacetimes that look like what we want.
1:20:05 NE: Yes.
1:20:05 SC: And that’s what you’re doing, isn’t it? That’s the kind of wormholes that you’re invoking.
1:20:09 NE: Yes, right. That’s what I was trying to sweep under the rug.
1:20:11 SC: I know. [laughter] And you were right to do so, but I just like to live dangerously here.
[chuckle]
1:20:18 SC: So Lenny and Juan have wormholes that are literally good old in spacetime wormholes, and you have wormholes that are in these fake Euclidean spaces that you used to calculate the entropy.
1:20:29 NE: That’s exactly right. Yeah, that’s exactly right. And these fake Euclidean spacetimes have more boundaries. There are more edges than our original spacetime, which means that these wormholes are connecting these… More edges than we have in our original spacetime, and therefore, it’s difficult to make sense of them in terms of the original spacetime that we’ve started with."
* *
Completely OT, but this gives an indication of 'old' in this context: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uD4izuDMUQA
Big question then it's what is the entanglement "key" and its properties. Or how to even brute force it.
My impression was that parallel universes do not feature.
Rather, it was that, contrary to appearances, Hawking radiation contains all the same information that went into the black hole.
However, this information appears only in the joint distribution over those photons rather than in any of the marginal distributions.
Broken metaphor: You throw a coin into a black hole. Was it heads or tails? Two photons escape the black hole, both spin-up* with 50% probability -- they each appear to carry no information about the coin. But suppose that if they are the /same/ spin, then the coin was heads, and if they are /different/ spin then the coin was tails. In this way the coin's information is not destroyed, but is also not carried by any individual photon.
* I have no idea if spin is actually the property of the radiation that carries the information.
I also get the impression that it is later photons that must somehow be entangled with earlier ones. That -- referring to that V-shaped curve -- the black hole is storing up information about what went in up to about the halfway point in time, which it later radiates away during the second half.
Waiting for an actual physisict to chime in, as, disclaimer, I don't actually know anything about this.
being heads or tails is a property of landing with all of one side of the coin facing down. This does not seem possible in the situation described.
As you fall into a black hole the event horizon shrinks away below you and from your own POV you never cross it. Thats true of every particle or photon it traps. Of course they get twisted and distorted by the extreme gravitational forces, but in principle there is always structure. I suppose from the internal perspective, Hawking Radiation manifests as a rain of negative energy.
I'm sure I'm wildly off the mark, but it's the best I can do.
You have it backwards. From the POV of an external observer you never cross the event horizon, because that's a function time dilation, and light that you emit being more and more red-shifted as you get closer to the event horizon. From the falling observer POV, nothing really changes - or rather, what happens close to the event horizon or just past the event horizon depends on what the theory of quantum gravity says.
No, they won't. This is simply wrong. See my other responses upthread.
Are you sure that's right? Thrust implies acceleration, not just velocity.
Suppose you're just inside the event horizon, from the perspective of an external observer. You're traveling outward at a velocity of .95c. That's lower than the escape velocity (which is > c), so you're going to fall back in before you actually get to the external observer. But if you were close to the event horizon you might cross back over it before you fall back in, right? At which point the external observer could see you again.
And once you're outside the event horizon, e.g. to the place where escape velocity is .9c, you might by then have slowed to .8c, but if you still have the capacity to accelerate back above .9c again, you could still get out, couldn't you?
It's right.
> Suppose you're just inside the event horizon, from the perspective of an external observer.
Whether or not you are inside the event horizon is not a matter of perspective. All observers will agree on it.
> You're traveling outward at a velocity of .95c.
Relative to what?
Outside the horizon, velocities, such as the escape velocity you mention, are usually meant as velocities relative to static observers--observers who are maintaining the same altitude above the horizon.
But below the horizon, there are no static observers. It is impossible to maintain a constant "altitude" (which here just means the surface area of the 2-sphere at your location, centered on the hole) even for an instant. So "velocity" relative to a static observer has no meaning inside the horizon.
> That's lower than the escape velocity (which is > c), so you're going to fall back in before you actually get to the external observer.
No, that's not what happens. Relativity is not Newtonian physics.
The event horizon is not a place in space. It is an outgoing null surface: a surface formed by radially outgoing light rays. Spacetime around the black hole is curved in such a way that this particular outgoing null surface has a constant surface area: in other words, even though there is a full 2-sphere's worth of radially outgoing light rays at the horizon, the surface area of the 2-sphere formed by those light rays is constant--the 2-sphere does not expand, as you would expect a radially outgoing spherical wave front to do, because of the curvature of spacetime.
If you are just a little bit inside the horizon, you are on a slightly smaller 2-sphere, and on that 2-sphere, even radially outgoing light rays cannot stay in the same place, much less expand; they contract--that spherical wave front, even though it is radially outgoing, decreases in area with time, i.e., it is falling. So you, having to move slower than light, will fall even more. You can't move outward at all; you can't even stop moving inward. (The fact that there are no static observers inside the horizon is a consequence of this.) That is true no matter how hard you accelerate, since no amount of acceleration will let you move faster than light.
Yes. The simpler answer is that even if you shoot a laser straight up the light can't get out, and the corollary is that you can't get out yourself even with arbitrarily high thrust.
No matter how much thrust you have to fight against gravity, light will always beat you, because light cannot be slowed down by gravity. If light is trapped then you are trapped.
> You're traveling outward at a velocity of .95c.
Let's make it simpler, and calculate what it takes for the outside observer sees you moving away from the black hole at all, even 1mph.
The closer you get to the black hole, the higher your local speed has to be. If you're 10 meters outside the event horizon, you have to get up to 99.999etc. percent of light speed (locally measured) just to slowly inch away from it (as measured by the outside observer), or even just to stay still. Once you fall inside the event horizon, you would have to go faster then light locally for the outside observer to measure you as moving upward.
Strictly speaking, no, the usual definition of event horizon is completely observer independent: the event horizon is the boundary of the region of spacetime that cannot send light signals to infinity. That region, and its boundary, are invariant geometric properties of the spacetime, independent of any observer.
> time and space coordinate switch places
This is a common pop science statement, but it can be very misleading. It would be better to say that, inside the horizon, moving "down in space" (meaning, decreasing the surface area of the 2-spheres you pass through, since the radial coordinate that you are using is defined in terms of those areas) is moving forward in time: the "forward in time" direction in spacetime is also the "decreasing areal radius" direction in spacetime.
Even that, however, depends on a particular choice of coordinates. There are other choices of coordinates where it is not true (at least not in the simple form in which I have just stated it).
Wrong. See my other response upthread.
> they will always be able to observe the external universe
But the light coming to them from the external universe will be more and more redshifted, and they can calculate from the observed redshift when they have crossed the horizon.
Also, they will only see a limited portion of the future of the universe; anything that happens later than a fairly short time after they cross the horizon, they will never see, because they will hit the singularity inside the hole before light from such events can reach them.
More precisely, the external observer never sees you cross the horizon. But he can still deduce that you did from other data. So the external observer does not say "you never cross the horizon", period. He just can't see it happen.
In this coordinate system, the time coordinate becomes space-like passed the event horizon and the radial coordinate becomes timelike. There is a coordinate singularity around this switch, which is where the infinite coordinate time comes from.
An observer fammiliar with relativity could compute the proper time of a path traversing the event horizon, which they would find to be finite.
No: the path of the free-falling observer at and beneath the horizon is not covered at all by the coordinate system of the external observer. That coordinate system simply becomes mathematically undefined, which means you can't use it to make any claims about what happens.
> In this coordinate system, the time coordinate becomes space-like passed the event horizon and the radial coordinate becomes timelike.
No: there is a separate coordinate patch that covers the region inside the horizon (but not the horizon itself--the horizon is not covered by either patch), in which the "areal radius" coordinate is timelike, and in which the coordinate corresponding to the extra Killing vector field is spacelike. Calling the former coordinate "radial" is at least justifiable, since it still is the "areal radius" coordinate even though it's timelike. But calling the latter coordinate "the time coordinate" is simply wrong; the fact that the letter t is commonly used for it does not mean it's a "time" coordinate in any meaningful sense.
> There is a coordinate singularity around this switch
Yes.
> which is where the infinite coordinate time comes from.
No, which is what makes statements like "infinite coordinate time" incorrect; the correct statement is that neither coordinate patch covers the horizon at all.
> An observer fammiliar with relativity could compute the proper time of a path traversing the event horizon
Yes. The easiest way to do that is to switch to some other coordinate chart which covers the entire path, above, at, and below the horizon. In such a coordinate chart, the "areal radius" coordinate will not be timelike below the horizon. (In at least one chart commonly used for this, Painleve coordinates, all four coordinates are spacelike below the horizon.)
By "time coordinate" I mean the hyperbolic angle. This corresponds to the proper time of our constantly accelerating observer. This remains a well defined coordinate on the interior of the black hole. As you identify, in the language of relativity, this is a spatial coordinate on the interior of the horizon. I specifically refer to this as "coordinate time" because it is the coordinate that our observer is using for time; not because it is actually a time coordinate in all regions of space-time.
> No, which is what makes statements like "infinite coordinate time" incorrect; the correct statement is that neither coordinate patch covers the horizon at all.
You do not need to consider the horizon itself. Consider just portion of the path that occurs before the horizon. This path crosses infinite coordinate time. Put another way, the singularity in this coordinate system is precisely that coordinate time diverges towards infinity as you approach the horizon. Put another way, if you pick any finite amount of coordinate time, you can find a portion of free-falling path from before the horizon that crosses that amount of coordinate time .
[0] Although I think we need to be a bit more careful about what we mean by external observer for this to be formally true. A free falling observer is "external" until they cross the horizon, but they don't see a coordinate singularity there.
I mean that there are two separate, disjoint regions of spacetime (one outside the horizon and one inside the horizon), and each one is covered by a separate coordinate chart. Informally people often talk as though those two charts are "the same", but they're not. They're two separate coordinate charts, that just happen to be described using the same symbols.
> we seem to agree that an external observer sees a coordinate singularity at the horizon
No, we don't agree about that. The coordinate singularity is only there for the particular coordinates we are talking about (which cannot cover the horizon). There are plenty of other possible choices of coordinates that do not have a coordinate singularity at the horizon, so a single coordinate patch covers the entire region of spacetime of interest.
There is a certain sense in which the coordinates we have been using (Schwarzschild coordinates) are the "natural" ones for an observer who is at rest relative to the hole. But one has to be very careful not to put too much weight on that; it can easily lead to errors if taken too far.
> I tend to use a hyperbolic coordinate system.
Can you give a reference for this? What you are describing in your next paragraph (about "hyperbolic angle" and so forth) does not seem like any of the coordinate charts I am aware of for Schwarzschild spacetime (Schwarzschild, Painleve, Eddington-Finkelstein, Kruskal-Szekeres, or Penrose).
> In the region on the outside of the horizon, it matches the natural coordinate system for an observer maintaining constant acceleration away from the black hole.
This is just Schwarzschild coordinates; any observer who is at rest relative to the hole (a static observer) has to maintain constant outward proper acceleration to stay that way. Close enough to the horizon, these coordinates can be approximated by Rindler coordinates on flat spacetime, which are a commonly used coordinate chart in special relativity for treating observers with constant proper acceleration.
However, if Schwarzschild coordinates are what you have in mind, first, your next paragraph doesn't seem to be describing them at all, and second, the key property you give here does not hold on the patch inside the horizon, since there are no static observers there.
> Consider just portion of the path that occurs before the horizon. This path crosses infinite coordinate time
No, it doesn't. Every event on the path that is outside the horizon has a finite value of Schwarzschild coordinate time. You even say so later in this paragraph, so you appear to be contradicting yourself.
It is true that, for some cases, you can take limits as Schwarzschild coordinate time increases without bound to compute quantities that are finite on the horizon. In fact, the proper time experienced by an infalling observer from some altitude above the horizon, to the horizon itself, is one of them. But you cannot use this limiting process to justify saying that the Schwarzschild coordinate time itself "is infinite" at the horizon.
> A free falling observer is "external" until they cross the horizon, but they don't see a coordinate singularity there.
Any observer can choose any coordinates, regardless of their state of motion. Whether any observer "sees a coordinate singularity" at the horizon is purely a matter of which coordinates they choose, and has no physical meaning.
Tidal forces are low for supermassive black holes, right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermassive_black_hole#Descri...
No, this is not correct. To the extent that the horizon is something that can be "seen" at all, you see it when you cross it. It doesn't shrink away below you.
> I suppose from the internal perspective, Hawking Radiation manifests as a rain of negative energy.
This is a common heuristic picture, but it is very limited. No real particles fall into the hole as a result of Hawking radiation. An observer already inside the horizon might be able to deduce that Hawking radiation was being emitted from local observations on, say, the tidal forces in his vicinity, but I'm not sure even that would be true: the models I am familiar with for evaporating black holes do not require any causal connection at all between the emission of Hawking radiation and any particular observer inside the horizon (in more technical language, the two remain spacelike separated for the entire trajectory of the observer inside the horizon).
That may still be the case, but for that we need a theory of quantum gravity.
On the other hand, the holographic principle says that the event horizon surface is big enough to contain all the information, so in a way of speaking we seem to be free to model black hole information as though it is "on the event horizon".
While this is a common pop science statement, it is not correct. The correct statement is that the external observer never sees the material cross the event horizon, because, heuristically, it would take an infinite time for light emitted exactly on the event horizon to get out to the external observer. However, this does not equate to the external observer being able to assign an "infinite time" to the material crossing the horizon. The notion of "time" the external observer would have to use to do that is mathematically undefined on the horizon.
> there is matter that starts out inside the horizon
No, there isn't. When an ordinary object like a star collapses to a black hole, there is no horizon at all to start with, and there is no matter starting out inside any horizon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graviton#Energy_and_wavelength