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Comment by msluyter | Hacker News Reader

If you have years or decades of experience you should have a large network of colleagues to get leads and jobs from.

Clearly I've failed here. I've kept in touch with a few folks from previous jobs via LinkedIn or whatnot, but as a network, I'd describe it as "thin and weakly connected." Part of that is due to being an introvert and generally terrible at maintaining long term human connections. And part of it is a certain indifference I've had in the past to actively managing my career, which in an of itself is a result of how generally easy it's been to find work. Curious if I'm alone in this?

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I suffered from shyness and what's called introversion when I was young. I also got combative with people I worked with. In my early 20s I met a guy (at a seminar) who was outgoing, friendly, easy to be around. Somehow we hit it off. He got me to attend Toastmasters (to get over my fear of speaking to strangers, and speaking to groups) and gave me some advice that some people pay thousands of dollars in therapy for: smile, look people in the eye, listen. Talk to (at least) one stranger every day -- initiate a conversation rather than standing in the corner.

At first that all felt forced and artificial but before long it was second nature. That free advice helped me in my professional life more than any tech skill. People decide if they like you or not within seconds of meeting you, based on a variety of cues. If they don't like you then you will struggle to get a job or gig.

Programmers often complain that the extroverts get ahead even if their tech skills aren't great. That's human nature, so rather than complain and fight it you can try to change yourself. You don't have to be fake. I see people on HN and other forums all the time writing about "hacking" their lifespan, their diet/metabolism, their ergonomics, their productivity. You can "hack" your personality too. Stop calling yourself an introvert for a start, that's not something a person "is," it's a label you can change.

Hey, I accidentally added you on LinkedIn (I wanted to add a but couldn’t on the phone). I’d like to hear more about this as some of my social skills could really improve. I also like learning about it.

Let me know if you’re up for a chat :) if not, then thanks for the comment! :D

I’m the wrong person to help, I think. I can only relate my own experience. Unless you get lucky and meet a natural extrovert coach like I did, seek out a coach, or even a therapist.

I limit my LinkedIn network to people I actually know, no offense.

None taken

This doesn't work for people in the autistic spectrum. It will just tire you and frustrate you, you have been warned. As for others, I this advice might prove useful. I guess the solution is to look for an job that doesn't emphasize neurotypical personalities. Or just be straightfoward to the people you meet; not everyone has to fit the extrovert card.

This also does not work for people with “worse” appearance.

After trying hard multiple times - Ive said F IT and went full b2b. Ppl may not like me, but they need my skill..

> Curious if I'm alone in this?

I think most people underestimate their networks. Not saying you're wrong, but you've worked with people, right? Hopefully not been a complete ass :) ? Done work on a team with or adjacent to them?

That's a start!

Networks aren't created overnight, and people try to hack them poorly all the time.

Think about it like a garden, not a project. It can't be created overnight: the right way is repeatedly, but at a low-intensity, tending to it.

Set yourself a goal: reach out to one person you've previously worked with on LinkedIn a week. Don't ask for a job. Just say you were thinking of them, {insert memory, if you have one}, and hope they're doing well. If they reply, maybe steer the convo to what technologies or challenges they're working on now...

I get it. I'm an introvert too. I'm €®£÷ing terrible with people. But it's improveable with repeated effort, like anything else.

A few ideas (in preferred order): (1) Take coffee (or now, Zoom?) with folks to catch up, (2) Volunteer with tech groups (pref charities, in tech, with people you want to network with, not just you giving free labor, and make sure to introduce yourself and talk about what you do), (3) Attend tech meetups (eh... unless you're presenting, this can be a waste of time), (4) Attend conferences (again, be seen, introduce yourself. Many are remote and free this year, good for attending, bad for networking)

The end goal is that if that person thinks "I need someone to X" then your name pops into their head. If you haven't talked to them in 5 years, that's not going to happen.

I think most people underestimate their networks. Not saying you're wrong, but you've worked with people, right? Hopefully not been a complete ass :) ? Done work on a team with or adjacent to them? That's a start!

This is absolutely spot on advice.

Having a career network is roughly equivalent to saying "I have former coworkers that would say that I am competent and pleasant to work with".

There doesn't need to be some intense relationship that persists past working together. Just shared work experience, and a track record of jobs well done on your part. : )

Totally agree. I'm not a "networking" person in the sense of deliberately cultivating/expanding a network, going to networking events, etc. It's also true that all three jobs I've had over the past 20 years were through personal contacts. (And the only tech job before was right out of grad school via an on campus interview.)

I think this is a bit too passive of an approach to generating freelance work. Everyone that I know of in consulting or freelancing is actively approaching people, drumming up conversations and trying to find things that they can help with to get their foot in the door. Once you've delivered on some projects with those clients, then they'll typically start coming back and asking for more, but it's not realistic to think that you'll get people cold-calling you asking for your services simply because you talked to them on LinkedIn for 10 minutes.

Depends on gig length. I tend to work on longer contracts, so should have called that out.

If you're doing short-job, multiple-contract work, definitely salt active effort to taste.

Everyone I know in freelancing/consulting, including myself, does almost no work drumming up new customers.

Repeat business from long-term relationships, and word of mouth through referrals are my main source of new customers. I work through an agency that puts new projects in front of me, but most of my customers are long-term, and I got them through contacts.

Among your professional colleagues you have to cultivate a reputation as an honest person who can solve problems, someone who is easy and pleasant to work with. Then people will think of you and recommend you when they hear about an opportunity.

I'm on LinkedIn mainly to keep in touch with people I used to work with, but I have never used LinkedIn to get consulting/freelance work.

I know lots of people trying to freelance struggle with getting jobs. They're all over Upwork and Fiverr and the many other gig sites. That's piecework, it's not the same as consulting. I hire people from those marketplaces sometimes to do small short-term projects.

One goal for freelancers and consultants is to get to the point where you're the only person the customer talked to. You aren't interviewing or submitting proposals. I understand that doesn't sound realistic to someone just starting out, and I admit I had the advantage of decades of professional experience and a lot of contacts. I describe some of my experience on my web site, I don't think I'm particularly unique.

I was standing at a gas station in rural New Mexico a few weeks ago when my phone buzzed. It was a LI note from an ex-colleague that I hadn’t seen in 12 years, wanting to know if I was available. I’m meeting her team in a few days.

Just being a good human being will get your far in life irrespective of tech stacks.

I hate to be a sourpuss, but in my experience that usually means that your long-lost former colleague is struggling to fill an unappealing vacancy, and not actually offering a valuable insider opportunity to you in particular, just because you happened to work together more than a decade ago.

FWIW that hasn't been my experience; mine has been closer to gp.

Best work advice I ever got: the competent nice guy always gets hired before the genius asshole.

People just want to solve a problem as painlessly as possible and go home.

That's completely understandable - people change over time. In this case it's truly appealing for both technological and non-toxic-work-environment reasons.

> Volunteer with tech groups ...

Along these lines, personally I find helping out at local Makerspaces (prior to covid lockdown) both rewarding and a source of interesting new forward looking people. Often people with early stage (physical) product ideas, thinking how to make their first working prototype(s).

Once the covid thing is over (whenever that is...), it might be a useful avenue to try out. :)

> I think most people underestimate their networks. Not saying you're wrong, but you've worked with people, right? Hopefully not been a complete ass :) ? Done work on a team with or adjacent to them?

Wait, I wasn't supposed to be a complete ass? Uh oh. :(

^^ this is really spot-on advice

You're not alone, but I also think that (like most of us) you're setting the bar higher than it actually is for what a "network" means. You posted a question on HN and look at how many people are willing to put effort into answering it and helping you out, and literally the only connection is "all of us read HN."

If you look up people you've worked with or otherwise know whose opinions you respect and ask them a version of the question you asked here, my experience is that most people will be more than happy to talk and to direct you to other people that can also give useful information.

The key issues (again, just in my experience) are:

1) don't ask for a job, or approach these conversations with the goal of getting a particular job. People can be 1000x more forthcoming and are generally more helpful when it's an "informational interview" rather than an informal "job interview."

2) always ask, "do you know anyone else I should talk to?" That's how you make progress.

3) don't be an ass. More actionably: interact with other people the way you'd want to be approached if the roles were reversed.

tl;dr: a "network" doesn't need to be a close group of your friends.

> More actionably: interact with other people the way you'd want to be approached if the roles were reversed.

I believe the introvert's response here is "I wouldn't want to be approached if they're just looking for work"

I used to struggle with this too. What helped me get over it is realizing that this is completely backwards. At every company I've worked for there has been a near-constant need for good people. When a former colleague who I know does good work reaches out to me about jobs at my company, I'm thrilled to have a conversation with them.

Even aside from any degree of friendship, this is nearly always a mutually beneficial situation. If it works out, I get a new teammate who I know is good (lower risk than hiring someone random). I probably also get some kind of kudos (generally even a bonus) from the company for the referral.

But if they fail that can be on you as well. There is a risk connected with this activity.

That's most of the reason for the first item: "don't ask for a job, or approach these conversations with the goal of getting a particular job."

Many people, introverts included, would want to be approached by someone genuinely interested in their opinion about, "how to approach job search as a Jack-of-all-trades?" even by people they have little connection with.

(As the sibling comment points out, these conversations often benefit the person you're talking to as well, even if you are asking for a job. But that's not the specific point I was trying to make since it relies a little more IMO already having stronger connections.)

> I've kept in touch with a few folks from previous jobs via LinkedIn or whatnot

That's enough. Most people will be happy to hire or recommend people they've had positive (read: not negative) work experiences with.

To you, you may seem introvert and invisible. But to someone else you may be a professional who doesn't waste time on banter and who will get the job done without rocking the boat.

Just contact people you've worked with before, you'd be surprised at how they remember you.

I’d add that it’s not to late to form connections now—people you’ve simply _met_ will often offer to recommend you.

I’ve cold called people I don’t know to ask about roles/companies, and had them then go on to advocate for me and get me on the inside loop. People I’ve never worked with! People generally love helping other people. Think: you’d likely do the same.

Also: it’s a positioning game. A name people have heard before is better than one they haven’t …

I think your connections are probably stronger than they appear. I'd be more than happy if a former colleague reached out to me about a job with my company. Even if is was somebody that I never really socialized with.

I don't think professional connections are something that need to be maintained in the same way that personal ones are. If someone remembers you and thought you did a good job, I doubt they care that you only reached out because they happen to want a job where you're currently working.

I have a network of close friends that I have maintained since college 20+ years ago but along the way there were a lot of people that I was friends with while I worked with them and for a time after we went our separate ways. I've started going through my contact list and started reaching out for a quick call to the people I'd like to build up contact with again using COVID as a reason to reach out. Anybody that answered was really happy that I rang. I try to do this once a week, all it takes is a few minutes, try scheduling it and picking one person a week, worst case its a short call best case its a friendship renewed. I think during COVID people are happy to take a personal call as casual conversation has died a death and work calls don't fill the same gap for human contact and conversation. Try it, what's the worst that could happen!

Every person has multiple social networks that they interact with on a daily basis. I think you're confusing your personal friend network with your larger professionally relevant network. All you need to get a job lead from someone in your professional network is for them to have a positive impression of you, even from years or decades ago. That impression can be built up from years of working closely together on projects including building up a close friendship, or from talking to someone for 15 minutes if you really stand out positively to them. Don't undersell the value of the connections that you have. Most people would rather hire someone that the know than someone randomly selected from a stack of resumes.

LinkedIn is a terrible place to get jobs and a terrible place to look for talent. Many people are very unsatisfied with this site for tech/developers. Often one looks great but once started development it is bad. I have not being developing about half of time as the parent thread author. However, all what he said sounds true!!

I never used a site to find work, always through network or colleagues. They tend to know my capabilities best. Head hunters are horrible people for tech. Buzz word and framework doesn't mean a thing. If you a good developer you can figure out how to do anything! It is how you thing and how you understand stuff and how to solve problems that counts.

I agree that LinkedIn is a terrible place, or a last resort, to find work. It's actually a pretty good place to maintain some connection with former colleagues and people you've met in your professional life.

I will disagree about recruiters (you wrote head hunters, which refers to a specialized kind of recruiter). Most of them are useless, but if you can find a good recruiter they can open a lot of doors. Many companies only work through recruiters, and good recruiters know the local job market and have contacts. How do you find a good recruiter? By asking people in your network.

> How do you find a good recruiter? By asking people in your network.

Yeah I am a bit weak in the area. I have stopped LinkedIn after MS bought them, a concern about my data privacy. One friend recommended a recruiter, wasn't very helpful. Would be open for other recommendation someone who is NOT just looking at buzzwords.

Think of it less as a friendship network which requires active effort to maintain and more of a collection of people who have experienced first hand your technical abilities and can vouch for them. Hiring good engineers is really hard and interview processes aren't all that good at selecting good engineers. So if you are looking for a new opportunity and have a way to broadcast that fact to former colleagues (LinkedIn!) then you will likely be able to get a lot of leads from people you may not have talked to in years and maybe didn't even know that well on a personal level when you did work together.

I can think of probably a dozen people I have worked with over the year, haven't spoken to since we parted ways professionally but would nonetheless immediately try to hire (or refer for hire) if they reached and said they were looking.

I have a great network of old colleagues, in the UK. Unfortunately for both my network and I Brexit happened and as the UK wanted me to give one of my two passports up in exchange for a nice blue one from the UK, I decided to move to the mainland instead. Network blown, and have to interview in a second language. It's harder for sure, but not impossible. I'm 50 and happily in a financial position where I can last a few years without a job.

I don't believe the UK has any rules against multiple citizenships [1] -- speaking as a triple national with UK citizenship, if I may ask, what happened there?

[1] https://www.gov.uk/dual-citizenship

I asked the home office what it would take for me to stay. Note that this was in 2018, so some time before they'd actually nailed anything down formally. Anyway they told me I'd have to apply for indefinite leave to remain, and eventually become a Brit. There was a fee too, I think ~ £1000. And the kicker, they said I was only allowed a UK passport and one other. And so I left the UK.

Having left I no longer paid much attention - I have no idea what the actual rules/requirements are for EU citizens with an additional non-EU citizenship to naturalise into the UK. And honestly I was so destroyed by the referendum anyway that I doubt anything would've kept me in the UK. Crazy sad.

Thanks for sharing your story and sorry to hear about your troubles. Best of luck. Also if you like I’m happy to speak with you more about opportunities, especially contracting; I’m usually thrown more than my network can handle.

Wow thanks for that offer. Grateful, but if I may I will decline - I really want to learn how things work here, and I'm making great progress. At the same time I'm trying to finish three software projects - one that has 60kLoC and started life in 2004. No shortage of stuff to do (and if I can turn one of these into a lifestyle business I'll be well happy)!

Curious question, does ur country of origin allow for double citizenship? I suspect that is the reason.

Otherwise, pardon me, I'd be shocked the UK keeps on growing inwardly and isolated from the rest. I just hope that they embrace the rest of the world as their leaders say. The US would love to have a closer relationship and I suppose other non-european countries too.

You are not alone in this, I'm an introvert as well and have a thin network but some of those contacts from the network are genuine friendships I made with former coworkers. I've made friends with gregarious extroverted coworkers too but it seems that those connections don't last once we're not working together. Oh well, it is what it is, there are clear disadvantages to being introverted.

I am really bad at this, but have gotten four jobs because I knew one person who really liked networking and thought I was really smart and convinced companies to hire me.

Definitely not alone. That post could have been written by me.

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