Hacker News Reader

Comment by an_d_rew | Hacker News Reader

Unfortunately, for us, Java “out of memory” errors are routine, and for even moderately-sized monorepos the RAM requirements can get insane.

View on HN

Precisely this.

Advocating for Java as a general purpose tool language sort of overlooks the incredibly broad and prevasive installbase of machines more than ten years old, as well as the rapidly growing installbase of ARM SOC machines.

For many, a tool eating up a gigabyte or more of memory is certainly not acceptable.

I'm lost. Can't people build their binaries on a powerful machine instead of an ARM tablet?

Not everyone has a powerful machine to do so with; many folks are still using computers that shipped with WinXP, or even Vista or 98/Me. It's a huge world outside of California.

Personally, my primary home/non-work machines are an RPi4 and a Pinebook Pro.

So Google should ship a potentially inferior tool, slower, because some people run on inappropriate or highly outdated hardware?

Hmm.

No, Bazel just fails to satisfy the very real need of building on less powerful machines because of its technological choice, a need served by other tools competing with it, and therefore is not really a truly general, one size fit all, solution.

The fact that you personally deem the needs of others illegitimate doesn't preclude them from actually existing.

The topic is whether FOSS developers should use Bazel, not whether Bazel is good for Google.

For many it is Bazel that is inferior due to development environment constraints.

And "outdated" is a questionable term: if it satisfies their needs, why upgrade?

Maybe Google should build better tools.

I think you're part of a minority, though.

You're talking about computers from 20, 20+ years ago and about Raspberry Pi.

It's a personal choice.

You can get a good second hand desktop from 2012-2015 for the price of your Raspberry Pi.

Travel to Africa, India and South East Asia some time. The world is a big place outside of California, and the hardware available to many is not what you'll find at a cafe in San Francisco.

I've lived in other less developed countries and it's not like a raspberry Pi is the most people can afford there.

Have you lived in the places you've listed?

The RPi is an example of a growing SOC device market, but I did mention as well the enormous install base of older and under-powered devices in general.

I have family in Colombia.

I don't live in California (nor the US), I've only visited twice or so.

I'm from a place similar to those you're describing.

Few people would get enthusiast gear like Raspberry Pi. What they would get, instead, would be an old x86 PC with pirated Windows. A crummy knock off Chinese laptop or locally assembled PC (so not from the big OEMs).

It seems we agree, then? Those devices you mention would be in the category of older, lower-power machines that I mentioned.

Not quite. Even rather poor people in poor countries can get PCs with decent computing power, as PC performance plateaued circa 2010 and old PCs are really cheap. You don't need to get something 20-25 years old when something 5-10 years old is maybe 20% more expensive and a lot more powerful.

Bazel requires gigabytes of memory; for a 10y old machine that's still going to eat up most of what you've got.

I'm curious what you consider "insane" to be -- and I mean this genuinely. Google has what I think most would consider to be a large monorepo, but also provides developer desktops with ample RAM. I've noticed blaze's startup time, but never really thought about its memory consumption. Where are you running into limits?

Doesn't blaze build remotely via citc? I thought files were loaded locally for editing but built remotely.

Blaze itself runs locally, reading BUILD files from citc. The build actions mostly execute remotely.

10,000+ artifacts on a 20 core Intel box with 64 Gb RAM.

We have some peculiarities of our Bazel setup that are not common, yet are (supposed to be) fully supported.

Building can take hours.

Are you using remote execution with Bazel? If you have hour long builds, it's often worth investing in remote execution (just remote caching can help too).

Reply on news.ycombinator.com