Coronovirus: France to go into national lockdown for whole of November
bbc.co.uk
bbc.co.uk
Seems to me if everyone took these measures seriously and genuinely made an effort to adhere to them we would be able to avoid this as the end game of outbreaks.
Other countries have curtailed massive outbreaks like this, it's possible to not end up in this situation.
COVID running rampant means an age adjusted mortality rate that matches 2005. Things weren't so bad then.
If you're going to advocate for a strategy that puts MORE people at risk and not LESS, then the burden of proof is on you to show that it will not cause more death and destruction. Saving lives is the priority and long term health outcomes should be a concern.
Also much of the data we have now is WITH significant measures being taken around the world, I can't imagine it would look better if we took less measures to prevent the spread.
Second point, covid health damage isn't just limited to literal covid deaths. The disease sends countless people into hospitals, crowds out other necessary treatment, and causes debilitating damage to brain, heart, lungs and other organs in countless of patients. It's hard to even put a number on the long term damage done to people's bodies.
>if everyone took these measures seriously and genuinely made an effort to adhere to them we would be able to avoid this...
My city in England had seen numbers fall to negligible between March and September, when the government opened the schools and universities again. We had an influx of 100,000+ students from all over the country, with the completely predictable outcome that cases skyrocketed in the space of a week of their arrival.
We've now been put in the government's "Very High" risk tier which, on paper, means pretty much a new localised lockdown... except all the schools and universities are still open. And all the bars and pubs have to close... unless they give you a plate of chips with your pint. And you have to wear a mask in public buildings and on public transport... unless it would 'distress' you to do so.
Either don't do lockdown at all, or do it properly. These half-arsed "total lockdown... except... except.. except..." are just going to keep things dragging on indefinitely
Totally agree. I think what the western world is struggling with is that the imposition of authoritarian lockdown measures on a liberal populace is not incredibly popular because it rubs up against individual liberties that are a pillar of western liberal democracies.
> We’ve all heard it. A lockdown fanatic rationalizes the never-ending lockdowns and the shifting goalposts by blaming people who supposedly have not been complying. “This would have been over months ago if everyone just did what they were supposed to. Whether intentional or not, this is gaslighting.
> Not only is this not true, but the exact OPPOSITE is true. Do these people not understand that “flatten the curve”, “slow the spread”, and “wait until a vaccine” all by definition mean stretching this out? Lockdowns do not eradicate viruses, they only delay the inevitable. As soon as the lockdown ends the virus spreads.
> If our goal was speed, then this whole pandemic could have been over in a few weeks if we just let it spread through the population, while shielding the elderly and vulnerable of course. The entire point of “flattening the curve” was to drag this out. Slowing the spread and waiting for a vaccine all prolong and delay.
> Anyone who thinks lockdowns could have eradicated the virus from every corner of the planet is either lying, ignorant, or insane. Even countries that were praised for keeping out the virus are now suffering new outbreaks.
New Zealand? South Korea? There's no comparison to the US.
My entire point is that with the extremely large case numbers in Europe and the US (and to some degree the lack of adherence to guidelines) there isn’t, in my view, an obvious alternative to lockdowns as a means to slow the spread and reduce harm.
Scroll down to “Hospital Admissions by Age Group”
Sure, it’s mostly old people who die (my parents age group actually) but I’m not sure how you tackle the problem of overflowing hospitals.
“He said flu and other winter conditions usually brought in 3,000 extra people to hospitals but there were already more than 10,000 coronavirus patients in England even before winter pressures had arrived.”
People around me are more upset about the government awful communication (blaming the population while more than half of the clusters are in schools, pretending the outbreak was sudden and unpredictable while the numbers have been close to the model projection for the last month) than the lockdown.
The French government gives a feeling of complete improvisation and general ineptitude that is hard to shake.
In Massachusetts, we've been wearing masks, consistently since May 6th (as per governor's order). Our case numbers over the summer had been "ok", but not great (despite being 3rd in the world per capital bad in April). We've never been anywhere near close to "zero" as Melbourne is now seeing after their lockdown and I think we've only had maybe 1 day with 0 deaths since March. Now we're back over 1K new cases per day, 3x what it was 2 weeks ago and it looks like it'll keep going up.
Our lockdown in March-June was actually pretty complete, it wasn't troops-on-the-street / roadblocks, but almost everything was closed and the reality was there was literally no-where to go and absolutely nothing to do. People just stayed home. We may never had an official curfew here, but again the reality is there's no one out and about after 9pm anyway (even now).
Today, we still have universal masking in public, significant restrictions on office occupancy, indoor dining, gyms etc., most schools are either hybrid or remote. We lead the country in testing capacity and we currently have 2000 contact tracers in MA according to MA-DHHS Sec. Sudders. We also have some of the very best health care in the world and in general a well educated populace.
So how did it go so wrong in MA and so right for Melbourne? (good on you guys in Victoria btw, well done!).
Asking for ... a "friend".
And with open borders to neighboring states (with weakish quarantine rules) I'm not surprised it's been unable to contain this thing.
At a glance, Plymouth is doing poorly. Probably driven by beachgoers and travelers. Shrug. This is hard.
MA actually just got put on the CT & NY "must quarantine" lists because of our now-higher rates (not not vice-versa, in fact Baker just today called NY/CT out on it but they didn't give in any on it).
I'm sure though that probably travelers through the airports might be problematic ... then again, air traffic is down very very significantly (source: live under a Logan approach and it's been absolutely quiet since late March).
I don't really know how else MA would enforce cross border quarantine short of police checkpoints at every crossing which would be both expensive and likely unconstitutional.
As for Plymouth ... it's kinda cold now, I'd have expected that back in the summer, but not so much now (although the Plimoth Plantation is in fact open which I'm a bit surprised at!).
1. The lockdown was probably not actually harsh enough.
I got a waiver from it, as did almost everyone I worked with, to continue coming into work. The paper said we were "critical to national infrastructure" but we work in long-term research which could easily be pushed back by weeks without anyone knowing or caring.
I don't know how typical this was or how many people were excluded.
2. You could always travel to and from other states pretty freely via car.
The only serious attempt I ever saw against this was at the New York Connecticut border they were checking for certain license plates (Florida maybe? they didn't care about my MA plates) one time. Even then, you could apparently get off the highway and avoid this because a friend of mine did.
3. Mask rules were/are looser in NH where everyone goes on weekends if traffic is any indication.
4. In recent months I saw a lot of people mushed together dining outside in the Italian district. We can debate how much this matters since it's outdoors but I don't think they were doing that in Australia. Separation looks more serious based on articles I've seen:
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/melbourne-unveil...
I don't have a lot of hard stats to put in here, but it wasn't Australia in MA and degree of enforcement certainly makes a difference if you're going to have rules.
There are also a number of countries which have done worse than Sweden despite extreme lockdown measures, so either way, it's far too early to jump to rigid conclusions on what was justifiable for which prices.
Belgium 96.36 Spain 75.2 United Kingdom 68.07 Italy 62.46 Sweden 57.85 France 53.04 Netherlands 41.27 Ireland 38.54 Romania 33.86 Luxembourg 23.95 Czechia 23.92 Portugal 23.07 Bulgaria 16.59
Copies from https://www.statista.com/statistics/1111779/coronavirus-deat... excuse the bad formatting