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Comment by samatman | Hacker News Reader

Literally every one of the existing options still works.

Ok with charging at 5w? Plug your lightning-to-A cable into the little tiny cube charger they've been selling since forever.

Already have a faster USB charger? It works.

Ok with Qi at 7W? Works

Oh, you want the new shiny MagSafe puck system?

Great. Buy it.

This analysis completely ignores that the new shiny system is supposed to be a better experience. It's completely additive to what we have now, nothing has been taken away: except the included charger and earphones, neither of which I would want to have.

I expect MagSafe will be quite popular. But that's because it's cool, not because anything about the new generation of phones compels users to buy it.

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I'm disappointed Apple hasn't dropped Lightning and just made all their devices use standard USB-C. I could see their motivation for developing their own connector when everyone else was using micro-B, which has a number of disadvantages, but now USB-C is used to power virtually every other phone and tablet, and many laptops including Apple's own.

I'm indifferent.

On the one hand, yeah, USB-C works great, and everything else I own takes it. On the other hand, Lightning also works great, USB-C isn't an improvement on the merits, and iPhone users have a bunch of accessories for it. Like in my car, I have a 12v charger with one USB-A port and a built-in Lightning cable, and I'd have to either junk it or just ignore the built in cable if they went USB-C.

I'm pretty sure the writing is on the wall with MagSafe: Apple intends to ditch the port entirely. That makes me nervous, frankly, and there are people out there who use an SD card reader who would be furious.

But I think that future is more likely than one in which Apple ditches the Lightning port for USB-C. We'll see.

My concern with them removing the port is what what would happen to everyone whose car's entertainment unit supports CarPlay but not wireless CarPlay?

I guess they either buy a new car or they buy a dongle they plug into their car as a wireless bridge (same as every change Apple makes ;P).

I’ve always seen it as a usb cable that you can swap out with any other usb cable.

Time to buy a new car ;)

It’s not like Apple’s software works forever in all cars. I have a 2013 BMW that doesn’t play nicely with my iPhone and I’m on iOS 10 still. It played nicely on previous versions but has gotten worse and worse as time has gone on.

Bradlys, Do you use a phone that cannot go higher than iOS10, or have you ingeniously managed to not update for all this time?

You must use iTunes to back up, via cable, right?

I had another phone that broke. So I went back to my iPhone 5S that still had iOS 10. I didn't want to update because I figured it would make the experience worse.

To be honest, I don't know if my significant other's phone (iPhone 11 Pro) can even connect to my car anymore through the cable. (Bluetooth being the only other option - which has significantly worse audio quality and issues like static or something of the sort)

Thanks!

Upgrading OS is the main source of frustration and time wasted in my pro-audio world. So I salute you - iOS10 survivor!

Note - listening to audio in cars, it's a compromise. It's never ideal, so I wouldn't sweat the quality - but you're right to question the reliability.

Use the good old, eco-friendly, headphone jack!

(All consumer wireless is ONLY instigated by Apple because it is cheaper for Apple, but consequently a poorer, less eco, experience for the world)

You get a little adapter like the ones they have for audio jacks. You can super glue it onto your existing cable if you have some sort of philosophical bias against dongles/adapters.

Does anyone other than BMW have wireless CarPlay?

I have an aftermarket Pioneer head unit with wireless CarPlay

I think new Fords do. We’re right at the tipping point.

You use the last phone that does have a port for a 2-3 years (get its battery replaced so it lasts longer), and eventually you get a new head unit that does support Wireless CarPlay.

I should have to replace the head unit in my car because Apple wanted to change the port on the phone?

I’d rather they stick with lightning.

If you don't have carplay, a new head unit is well worth the upgrade.

If you do, but want to switch to wireless carplay, there are adapters: https://cplay2air.com/products/cplaystreamer-wireless-adapte...

That said, I think Apple will offer both lightning and portless iPhones during the transition. They might make the "mini" phones be portless for example.

Maybe Apple or someone could release a wireless data adapter or dongle for wired CarPlay in the future to overcome this problem.

USB-C depending on implementation has enormously greater throughput (USB 3.1 gen 2 is 10Gbps) than lightning (480Mbps/60MBps). This might not be relevant for your needs, but increasingly Apple are marketing the iPhone as a 'pro' device, specifically for media creation. And it is finding a home in videography and event photography and streaming for example (I work in this area). Given this, the speed available through wifi and lightning are both enormous constraints on the usefulness of the phone professionally. So this is actually a really big issue for a segment of apples audience - perhaps a small segment, but specifically the segment whose imprimatur continues to lend apple devices their desirability.

The lightning port does support USB 3 speeds, the old iPad Pro (pre-USB C) models supported USB 3 over the lightning connector and Apple even released some adapters that took advantage of the speed: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0W2AM/A/lightning-to-us...

But for some reason Apple has never brought this support to the iPhone's lightning port.

Maybe their flash storage is too slow so people would notice? Right now it takes hours to back your phone.

Apple's flash storage is actually extremely fast. I could only find benchmarks of the iPhone 6s (a 5 year old phone!) but even back then it clocked 400 MB/s read speeds

The Controller, both in power consumption and size requires for those USB 3 Speed never quite fit into iPhone requirement. ( You can check out the size of USB 3 Speed lightning controller on that iPad, if my memory serves me correct it was 4x the size of similar controller for iPhone ) In 2020 this may no longer be the case, but then there is the BOM cost issue. Why pay more for this feature when you can do it wirelessly? WiFi 6, and in the future 802.11ay using mmWave provide 1Gbps to 10Gbps real world wireless transfer speed.

Lightning also doesn't support native video output, everything is crushed down into a h264 stream that's decoded by the HDMI dongle. The USB-C iPads can do native 4K output.

The most generous outcome I can see is Apple ditching ports on the iPhone and Mini, and moving the Pros to USB-C.

Hold on there sparky... If they did that, they would loose money on both the new chargers they sell people, plus every other adapter seller would need to change products, and then buying a charger that works with both iPhone and Android on one cable!?! Sacrilege! /s

USB-C is great but the Lightning connector is still better designed. Oh and you can downvote me all you want, I'm an electrical engineer, not an Apple fanboy. Don't like the phone. Anyway, they should at least include a cable.

Disagree. I have had frequent issues with lint and other detritus collecting in Lightning ports, causing the device to no longer be able to charge until it is cleaned out. I haven't had that with USB-C (or any other type of port for that matter).

Also USB-C can charge my computer. Lightning cannot.

The entire reason I want something like USB-C is so that I can do everything with one cable. Lightning is not up to the task.

Well, with USB-C you've got two holes that can fill up with junk, not just one. The Lightning port is at least easy to clean with common household items: toothpick and ear swabs.

I agree with you, the Lighting connector is more mechanically durable in general.

I disagree and think the USB-C connector is better designed.

Exposing electrical contacts to the environment like on the Lightning connector is bad for several reasons, including increased risk of static electricity damage and wear on the exposed electrical contacts. Apple has gone to great lengths to reduce or eliminate the static electricity risk by integrating a special IC into the cable. The contact wear issue has not been addressed by them. Many of the cables I have show signs of eroded contacts and I think that is the main reason why some cables of mine have failed.

The USB-C connector surrounds the contacts with a mechanical shield that protects them from fingers or anything else. This is a standard connector design that has been used on pretty much every connector. It is boring, but it works.

The Lightning is great engineering, but is ultimately let down by the radical design IMHO.

BTW, I am also an electrical engineer that has designed MFI accessories and uses iPhones.

I think mechanically, the Lightning port is fine, my issues with it are more about how it requires an expensive active converter to output HDMI.

A lightning to HDMI adapter really has a decoder as the phone streams compressed video to it. Which lowers the quality and raises the price.

The lightning connector shield pin 9 also surronds the rest of the contacts in a horizontal plane and is connected to the USB type A connector ground. It's not a signal ground but rather interconnects both devices cases through the shield. Regarding the contact wear issue, I'd much rather have my cable connector contacts wear off than the female connector contacts on the device. The cable is a less expensive replaceable part. So the mechanical and electrical design of the connector is sound.

I'd take the power brick out of the box and introduce the new wireless charging stuff first, too. Let people finish yelling about that first, then set off the inevitable rehash of the "but none of my dock connector accessories will work with my new phone! Apple just wants more money argh argh argh" fussing.

Not to mention the problem with wireless charging you find with thick cases, pop sockets and ring stand thingies.

The theory I've heard is that they're planning to remove the charge port entirely in the iPhone 13, and therefore it would be a massive engineering waste to make only a single generation of phones with USB-C.

But yeah, I really wanted USB-C. Bought the phone anyway though.

I can see that happen. Which will suck if you use your phones for camping trips or vacation where you need to charge on the fly.

Maybe in a few years wireless charging will be efficient enough that you don't have to bring a larger power bank to compensate for power loss.

My own addendum to the theory is that this is why they've introduced MagSafe charging – if you have a power bank in your bag that is supposed to be charging your phone, but its wireless charging its just gonna fall off / come away from the charger. With magnetic attachment that is still more likely than an actual cable, but much less so.

Power-bank usage is clutch in professions that involve both a lot of phone communication and movement. Event staff an politician's offices (which have a surprising amount of overlap) both will run on multiple power banks a day during "Go" time.

If it weren’t for the issue of charging at 15w without Apple’s own usb-c base, I’d say that it already is sufficient for charging on the go.

https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/jiul9p/magsafe_charg...

They already make iPads with USB-C, so I presume most of the engineering work has already been done.

> they're planning to remove the charge port entirely in the iPhone 13

I can't... I don't... why would they do such an insane thing.

That would suck. I've certainly seen the usefulness of wireless charging--I've had two tablets power connectors die on me and was saved by wireless charging (HP Touchpad, and Nexus 7 2013 that I still occasionally use)--however, not having a USB port available is massively inconvenient: my Nexus 7 takes ages to charge, and needs to be positioned just right. If I bump it during the night, grab the wrong cable, etc, it falls off and I may not notice. Worse yet, data transfers without the cable are insanely slow; the main reason I got a new tablet was so I could put files on it in the morning (music, video, work, etc) and still leave on time. Wireless data transfer isn't just slower than wired, it's also massively more battery draining, and the wireless charger can't keep up if the screen is on--not that it matters, since you can't actually use a wireless charger with a device in your hand anyways.

Given the amount of discussion USB-C gets here on HN, maybe it's not such a clear decision?

I think the biggest risk in USB-C, for me, it makes me really nervous when I buy a cable, and even then I'm not 100% confident. When I buy a lightning cable, I have no fears. And they're not even more expensive anymore. Some of those USB-C cables are just as expensive.

No matter one's take on generic USB type C cables even if you only used an Apple branded USB type C charging cable at least you'd be able to use the cable with other devices too.

I.e. it's always a lose situation to have the non-standard cable. Either a generic USB cable would be better or the Apple brand cable would be better for more than just your Apple device.

That being said USB C cables for phone charging aren't where people usually run into the USB C standard confusion anyways.

USB-C would have been the true environmentally friendly move

Throwing away a billion devices worth of accessories isn't the environmentally friendly move.

I'm always confused how people talk themselves into believing this. It is obviously not the case.

Unless Apple decides to ditch the port entirely in the near future, your argument doesn't make sense.

Sure, there will be some minor pain during the transition, but the world did not end when Apple transitioned from the 30-pin to Lighting transition, nor did it end when phone manufacturers transitioned from micro-USB to USB-C. You can use USB-C to lightning adapter, like how they have 30-pin to lightning adapter earlier.

Nobody will throwaway their lightning accessories. iPhones and its accessories have a strong used market, and it will find good homes to older iPhone users.

Does no one remember the uproar when Apple first introduced Lightning? Everyone I talked to hated that their old 30-pin connector cables wouldn’t work anymore. With how much more popular the iPhone is now compared to over half a decade ago, it’d be even worse.

There’s a ton less accessories nowadays. Everything is Bluetooth. USB-C versions already exist for Android. Lightning is waste.

What accessories? Everything is bluetooth now.

I mostly agree, but I'd whine a little about having to buy more charging bricks. I don't really need fast charging, but I have a bunch of little devices to charge and almost all of them support USB-A. AFAICT all current USB-C charging bricks are limited to 3 (maybe 4?) ports. And those are expensive. I've already got a few of the 6-port bricks. I suppose this is because USB-C is potentially faster (PD) so they can't support more than a few ports per charger. Still, it's been a hassle with my iPad Pro. It's kind of the bastard child of my collection, and it just barely agrees to be charged with a USB-A to USB-C cable (it doesn't always agree to charge from a completely drained state, but it does charge if it's already got enough juice to turn on).

There are more Lightning Cables within the iPhone users than there are USB-C cables. There are 1Billion iPhone users, That is at least 1 Billion Lightning Cable, ( not counting possible tens if not hundred of millions sitting in the drawer ).

How many of those has USB-C Devices?

Most of the complain where from Mac users, Ahah, why cant I charge my iPhone with USB-C just like MacBook Pro?

There are 100M Active Mac Users, and I willing to bet there are at least 20M on Mac which dont have an USB-C port.

What you are asking is to change the port to something that barely gives any benefits for the convenience of a small group of users. ( an iPhone with USB-C Port does not automatically mean it will support faster transfer, or higher Wattage charging, both can be done with Lightning Port, should Apple feels the need. )

I just dont understand it.

> This analysis completely ignores that the new shiny system is supposed to be a better experience.

It doesn't ignore it, it's explicitly about it.

What the article is saying is that Apple is sending out conflicting marketing messages. On the one hand, they advertise the lack of charger in an iPhone box by their environmental consciousness. On the other hand, they advertise the "full experience", in order to get which you need to buy a new charger and a new cable. The author isn't asking Apple to change their packaging strategy; the author wants Apple to make the marketing consistent.

(Personally, I think the two messages only lend credence to the cynical view: that Apple's environmental concern is bullshit, and it's all a way to hide a price increase behind "optional" dongles, hoping the buyers are too dumb or too committed to the brand to notice.)

Every company ever has inconsistent or BS marketing. You can almost roll your eyes at the Exxon anti-global warming ads.

So what? Why do we focus so much on Apple?

> Why do we focus so much on Apple?

Apple has (like many successful companies) into a bad habit of being evil by default. Identifying where the market has born a bad actor is par for HN.

It isn't widespread knowledge that Apple is actively engaging in practices they market against. It's also interesting to note that they seem to get worse each release and people still haven't been acknowledging the reality.

The knowledge that Exxon is promoting anti-global warming hand waving is ubiquitous.

The perspective presented is to the point that it's marketing is laughably contradictory. It's good fun for both those who visit Apple stores (and didn't realize what happened) and those who don't for various reasons...like avoiding planned obsolescence.

The cable is a wear item. By the time I'm ready to swap phones (3 years or so), I'm also ready for a new cable.

If I bought an iPhone 12 tomorrow, I would, at minimum, also have to buy another cable, because the one Apple included doesn't work with my existing charger. Not the end of the world, but still annoying.

I think you may be an outlier in owning only one lightning cable. I just looked in my desk drawer and counted 5, and I can think of 3 more in other areas of my house and car.

I own more than 1, but they all get used regularly. There's one on my nightstand, one in my car, and one in the office. I can swap them around, but that doesn't solve the problem - at the time I'm ready to buy a new phone, one of them is worn out.

Have you considered wireless charging? It seems like you’d save money over buying more cables, in the long run.

Maybe, but wireless is new (my iPhone 7 doesn't have it), so it hasn't come up before now.

But, that just means I have to buy 2 new wall warts (need the high power one, IIRC), still need 1 new cable (unless it's included with he wireless pad), and 2 wireless pads.

And it's not an option in the car, because CarPlay requires a cable (in 90% of cars, AFAIK only BMW has implemented wireless CarPlay).

I have 5 in my drawer and I don't even have an iPhone.

My kids fidget absentmindedly with the charger cords while they use their phones, so at this point we buy them in packs of ten off Amazon.

Qi is fine. You can get a dock/pad with cable and charger sometimes for less than the cost of a lightning cable.

Personally I have an anker dock and I stopped buying any apple accessories.

> This analysis completely ignores that the new shiny system is supposed to be a better experience

Having used a Qi charger for my existing phones and a MagSafe charger for my Apple Watch, I can say that I prefer the non-MagSafe Qi charger for my phone. It's the one that most gives the illusion of truly wireless charging.

With MagSafe charging now I imagine I'll have to lift my phone and presumably detach the MagSafe puck at the same time, making it more cumbersome than what I do now, which is just lifting the phone off the Qi charger. I verified this hypothesis here: https://youtu.be/XDKPNwC-5D4?t=185

While there will likely be sticky/weighted versions of the MagSafe charging puck to alleviate this issue at some point, this is not a better experience as designed.

I'll likely continue to use a generic Qi charger for my phone

Plus that MagSafe charger will likely last through multiple phones, nobody is going to move away from Qi.

Also the fact that the described situation may occur once, but then forever after you will have both usb c and a bricks so you will be set for whatever future devices you get rather than being given a brick every single time while most go unused.

> after you will have both usb c and a bricks so you will be set for whatever future devices you get

Looking at Apple's track record, this is a ridiculous statement.

There is no future proofing planned obsolescence.

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