The Need for Touch
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I'm somewhat fortunate that if I get particularly lonely or touch deprived, I can hop on grindr/scruff/hornet and resolve that situation pretty quickly in most cases. I hear the situation for single heterosexual men is significantly worse, but I'd like to hear others thoughts. Are there outlets for straight lonely people in need of touch?
Gay dating apps have a reputation for being very sex focused, but many of the profiles I see are specifically seeking out touch/cuddling as a primary or even exclusive goal.
First I don't want to catch something (aids, chlamydia, herpes, ...) so a few minutes of sex doesn't seem worth the risk. I know, at least according to popular media that puts me in the minority. If my attitude is common it's probably not easy to spot.
Second, I don't want to hurt people. I know they exist but 9 times out of 10 people I meet want a serious relationship and would be hurt if we slept together than then I called it quits. I wouldn't lie to them directly but they'd feel like I was lying to them if I say, slept with them 2-3 times and then stopped seeing them. So, I basically don't get into it in the first place unless I believe that I'd like to be with them longer term. Of those people that could be more casual usually issue 1 comes up. They sleep around so they are more likely to have something and plus I don't want my heart broken.
Third, I'm also someone who just wants one person not just for sex but for love and companionship so my attitude is bad when meeting / looking for people. My attitude is "can I see myself being with this person long term" instead of "would it be fun to be with this person for the moment". That answer is quite often "no, I can't see myself being with this person long term". I don't think that's that strange of a thought. A stereotype of a story is the person that doesn't think this way and has lots of failed relationships for choosing superficial qualities of attractiveness as their reason for getting into a relationship. But, at least they had a relationship.
Anyway, the sum of those 3 things and possibly some bad luck being in jobs which have few members of the opposite sex and friends that have few friends of the opposite sex means I haven't had a relationship for ~17 years. I hope every day that will change, I frequent 5 dating sites. I have matches. But getting something started seems really hard. I would do much better if I went to church (I'm atheist) or did some activity where I got to know people over time and become friends first. I've gone to several meetups but if they are truly about something I care about they usually have few members of the opposite sex. I've been to a few otherwise but it's been the same bad luck I guess. No one I'm interested in or no one that shows interest.
Thankfully I met my GF through the nerdy side of the internet - an area I'm much more comfortable on.
What I can recommend to you, maybe cliche but it works and worked for me - start some physical workout. If you are unfit start gently, adapt your body to it. Do something that you +-enjoy, you will not stay with activity you hate for too long. Progress in it, in a pace that suits you (or not, and do it more often - that's progress too). Consistency is the key.
What it brings is not only looking better, but actually feeling much better about oneself. More confidence, happiness. This is something women perceive very well and it elevates your status. One will usually start eating healthier too. What women look for is generally competence, the more you bring to the table the easier is to find the matching partner. At one point, you can start being picky and choose based either on looks (not so smart approach if the main criterion) or personality and compatibility with you.
That way, exposing oneself in various social groups does bring many more encounters and stops being such a frustrating futile experience it once was. At least that's my path, and there is good logic in it.
But that is they key here.
My brother in law is like that, a really good guy and handsome as well. But he takes this perfect partner thing to such an extreme that he's been single forever. Also, he has personal issues that would stand out if he was in a relationship. He thinks that by entering a perfect relationship those would be non-issues, but that's the thing -- there is no perfect relationship or person, and by entering even meh-level relationships you can see your own issues and perhaps fix them -- if you really want a relationship, that is.
But your paragraphs make it look like this is it. The world is not static. As the other commenter said, you can gently start working out. It's a thing, and it has intrinsic value.
Also, you often can't see yourself attaching to a person long term, because you don't know yourself as well as you think you do. (One should stay away from toxic people though.)
Another thing is that you can start hanging out with people of the opposite sex without trying to get into a relationship. The "friend zone" is largely a myth, not trying to score is incredibly sexy. And lots of friends have hooked up after years as friends only.
Many churches are welcoming of atheists by the way, but you have to stand it yourself, of course. One way could be to not attend service as much as volunteering for their support groups. Volunteers helping out in the community is always in short supply. This goes for non-denominational groups too, of course.
Emphasis on "popular"; as with politics, there's a loud minority that skews the perception of, in this case, the prevalence of casual hookups. But think about it, few people on social media will mention NOT having hookups, so it's a case of survivorship bias (I think).
My point is, the amount of people that have frequent hookups is relatively small, but media (social and others) make it look like it's common, normal, or even expected. But it isn't, in practice.
I've been into contact improvisation, some partner dances, and acro, and the scenes are structured by social circles that are much broader that most romantic relationships.
You become part of a scene by showing up regularly, practising, and occasionally making friends.
If some of these activities have sensual components (communication through touch, syncing together, sharing an understanding of the music…), there's no need to link that to romantic connections.
Sounds more like microphobia. The chances are not that great. Except if you get casual sex from the fringe of society...
STI in transsexuals is even higher. Some reports have it at 3/4 with high percentage of HIV. High rates among gays. Lesbians are pretty low (but have high domestic abuse rates).
STIs are a real danger unless many precautions are taken. We’re looking at dental dams. Condoms. And a lot of cleaning.
Which is misleading, as it includes STIs so benign that a full 1/4 of the population can have without any associated issues...
This is basically false and fear mongering.
Herpes has zero consequence for the vast majority of people who have it. Most of the rest just get mild discomfort once a year or every few years. It's so common and harmless that doctors won't even bother testing for it unless you make them.
The connection between HPV and cancer is real but reporting on it overstates its significance. Your risk of developing HPV-related cancer is less than your risk of getting murdered (very low). Also there's an effective vaccine against the most oncogenic strains. If you're worried, get vaccinated.
HIV still sucks, try not to get it, but transmission isn't that easy and, while treatment used to be very expensive, we have cheap and effective post-exposure prophylaxis and the price now for the generic form of standard treatment is less than $100 per year, and life expectancy with HIV is now nearly normal.
Chlamydia and gonorrhea are cured by a single dose of oral antibiotics. Syphilis is also cured by antibiotics.
But "real danger" usually has a more well defined meaning...
So using an argument of the kind to prove some Y is dangerous is either bad reasoning or disengenuous...
It's like job interviewing. If you only do it (and more importantly only think about it) once a year, and only when you know it's a job you _really_ want to get, you're going to be really nervous and perform poorly.
The only thing that did change was that I made myself start dating and I was extremely honest. I told anyone that I asked out (or the rare "asked me out") that I wasn't looking for a serious relationship. The first time I said it was after a bad breakup because I didn't think I was ready for it, but I was shocked at how well this was received.
What I accidentally discovered is that women often want to go out, they want to go on a date, get to know you and see if there's a mutual connection there. What they don't want is to be stuck if they decide it's not and you become overly clingy, so they have to concoct ways to let you down easy or break it off without hurting your feelings.
It's been 18 years so forgive me if I can't remember exactly how I phrased it, but I think at some point in a conversation I'd say something along the lines of "Hey, I'm not looking for a serious relationship right now but I like you. Would you like to [have dinner|catch a movie|hang out] sometime?"
It was great. No pressure on anyone (including sexual pressure), no serious hard feelings from any of it. Actually made a lot of life long friends. Over the course of 1 year I went out with about 12 different people and met my wife. We've been married for 16 years now.
When teaching children or adolescents you sometimes get strange looks from parents, because things can look a bit weird in ground holds.
Part of the effect seems straightforward enough - self-confidence at gaining newfound abilities, exercise, socializing, maintaining emotional self-regulation while engaging in controlled "fighting", etc.
But I think there is also something to the mere act of touching other humans and being touched several times a week. As the article suggests, it's comforting, fulfilling a basic human need. I wonder how this all plays out in the brain - can someone with a neuroscience background comment? Is the sense of touch specifically connected to brain areas of social well-being?
Edit:
"Many neuroscientists and psychologists believe that we have a dedicated system just for the perception of social – affective – touch distinct from the one that we use to touch objects. This system seems to be able to selectively recognise caress-like touch; this is then processed in the insula, a brain area connected to maintaining our sense of self and an awareness of our body. Slow, caress-like touch is not only important for our survival, but also for our cognitive and social development: for example, it can influence the way we learn to identify and recognise other people from early in life."
https://aeon.co/essays/touch-is-a-language-we-cannot-afford-...
After finishing college I moved to basically the middle of nowhere for my tech job without knowing anyone in the area. Wasn't proactive enough making friends, and because of my gf at the time I didn't seek out any women. We broke up right as the pandemic started, which may have been the worst possible time.
I'm not sure if it's because it's been so long that I touched anyone, but I don't get touch deprived as often as I would have expected. Sure there are times occasionally where I feel really lonely, but so far it's been pretty easy to brush that off. However, taking care of my mental health has been nearly a full time job. I make sure to exercise daily, I picked up guitar and mountain biking, and I blocked all social media I see as toxic (reddit, youtube, facebook. HN is okay in moderation). I my sleep schedule in check with targeted melatonin and bluelight filters. Keeping up with old friends and family is also essential.
My running theory is that touch is certainly a positive, but it isn't essential if the other parts of your life are kept in shape. Although shortening that list of mental health tasks to something more manageable does sound enticing. I've never been good at dating though, and with the double whammy of it being quarantine and not having a local friend group I'm not really sure how to solve that problem. Dating advice might be a bit off topic for HN though, considering temporarily unblocking reddit.
http://meaningring.com/2016/03/07/why-you-should-forget-the-...
But then also staying in cold detached relationship ain't the best for the child either - they are very perceptive and seeing everyday cold parents relationship affects them negatively too. There isn't a nice, quick and easy solution for everybody without some real chance of harm for the most vulnerable - that's why it often becomes one's low point of life. You know its bad for the person you love the most, and you don't have a clear win scenario. Amicable split with good care from both sides is probably best, but unfortunately rarely seen.
Fuck I wish we were taught more these kind of things in schools (selection of life partner is tricky, test the relationship and each other hard before having children, but also things like effective communication, teamwork, how to generally thrive in system - ie taxes, how to setup a 1-man company etc.). Imagine nation of people raised like that, instead of memorizing tons of stuff that was forgotten very quickly but spent a lot of time/energy on.
I’m curious, what are the telltale signs?
There are more extreme cases - wife works currently as doctor in prison, and most folks there didn't have a good (or any) fatherly model. Women have their own 'daddy issues' side to it, but most above applies too (experienced first hand in one relationship, it was pure nightmare although she was smart and professionally successful).
I suspect the first case causes more competitiveness issues, general aggressiveness (or toxic masculinity if you will, though the term is somewhat problematic) The latter more issues with trusting women, intimacy, etc. Not believing in long term relationships might be more likely if one of the parents is completely out of the picture, not so much gender related. This is from a male perspective, perhaps from a female perspective the two cases can simply be flipped.
There probably is some research into these things, but I wouldn't know where to start.
Unhealthy competitiveness, inability to be happy with what one currently has, don't believe in ... starting [a] family, these things all apply to me.
My parents will celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary next year. I distinctly recall my mother describing my father as her best friend about a decade ago when on the phone to one of her friends.
Suffice to say, I disagree with your theory of tell tale signs. You've just put people in a box incorrectly.
But it is not glaringly obvious at all who grew up with missing dad (or missing mom). None of the issues the sibling mention are exclusive to such people nor so much more likely to be found in such people.
And he will still have to cooperate with ex. (Through here it sounds like fairly doable.)
You should acknowledge and try to fulfill your emotional needs as well.
I had a REALLY bad example in my mother who changed her mind multiple times about divorcing my father for the sake of me and my sister. That mental model of self-sacrifice made me unable to breakup with my (now) wife after some major red flags.
If you want to re-connect with your wife, absolutely tell her that and acknowledge to yourself and her that you do have emotional/romantic needs, and that your child absolutely is a reason in your willingness to give your relationship another go, but you will not be forever happy or stay in this arrangement.
Per the article, my partner is absolutely one who desires the language of touch. That we are around each other but deprived of it is very taxing.
Just this, as small and simple as a one minute hug made a huge difference and generated other benefits.
> I hoped things would turn around
Tell your wife that.
I feel that I am also incompatible with my wife on an intellectual level, but I can manage many point aspects of our relationship.
One (very) good aspect of our relationship was sex. This has taken a downturn recently and somehow, either because my wife was implying it or some social expectation, I was left with the impression that somehow I was a pig that only wants sex.
A great insight came from a female therapist who told me that sex is also a way to communicate and regulate/re-establish relationships. I shared this insight with my wife who also found it very true.
I'm sure its not just the sex, but touch as well.
There is this modern myth that spouses should be perfect matches and its sort of all or nothing -- this is very wrong and damaging.
People keep talking about how leaving cities will be great but they haven't lived in rural places. It's not nice.
Like cutting branches from a young tree so that it grows taller or straight -- to serve an ulterior purpose.
The ulterior purpose for cutting emotional branches of men is to increase productivity and yield from men, increase obedience to authority figures for fighting wars and so on.
In short, no. In practice, onlyfans and right-wing politics? That's what seems to be happening instead.
Some people aren't aware of this as a need. Others have mental blocks. But if you really want it (I mean without sex), it is possible to arrange it and some people do so.
The article itself is filled with ridiculous pleonasms and nonsense statements:
>The language of touch also affects the way that we relate to ourselves and our bodies across the lifespan, with profound impacts on our psychological wellbeing
WTF does this even mean? Followed by "citations needed."
>As a scientist, but also as a fellow human, I claim the right to touch, and to dream of a reality where no one will be touchless.
Get away from me creepy science lady!
In all seriousness, this is article is a load of West Coast american New Age horse shit. There are entire cultures of no-touchy people: for example, the Nordics, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese. They tend to be more long-lived, happy and vastly more free of mental illness than West Coast Americanos who gabble on about muh therapeutic touch (and who also post HN articles about the mystical wisdom of .... Nordics and Japanese when it comes to their ancient and mysterious customs such as going outside sometimes[0][1]). There's something infantile and needy about over-touchers. Cultures which have different conceptions of shared space (I dunno southern Europeans, Arabs) also have plenty of boundaries -the touchy feely types don't, and I think the latter are the ones with problems.
Lonely people: if you have something that prevents you from making friends in the ordinary way, please buy a dog or something and leave us non-touchy feely people alone.
But you are right. People who are lonely or depressed are better off having some good friends they can call to hang out on a Friday night. Having some huggy colleague or kisses from you aunt don't make you feel better.
My experience is that an intimate relation with someone is nice at first, but as more people have said in this thread, it fades away after some years. I personally never feel better than having a great night with friends.
In terms of dating apps for heterosexual men, I don’t think it’s that bad. There’s a lot of women that are up for just having a conversation and from that a friendship can spark where cuddling is perfectly fine.
Growing up in a Mexican culture, I have always been taught to be chaste and pious, but it just isn't something I internalized. Instead, my peers were a much bigger influence.
It seems more common in some other cultural contexts to internalize this kind of self-denial with overtones of purity.
Even as a gay man, I never found the need for dating apps, since there isn't as much of a binary distinction between friends/acquaintances and romantic partners.
I was the same as you until I was about 21. Up until I was 18, everyone in the community I grew up in would say that if two boys touched each other then it was a gay act. And since everyone was deeply homophobic... no men touched each other. I see this culture in many places still even in places like the Bay Area. Men don’t touch and rarely hug. Mostly handshakes or something.
Anyway, I grew out of that by moving to a big city and learning dance when I was 18. Started with swing dancing (Lindy hop, Charleston, etc) then progressed to others. Mostly so I could be close to cute ladies! As I aged, I learned dances that involved a connection spanning from the thigh all the way to the head... like you were in a full contact hug. And sometimes there weren’t enough women to practice with or some of the men wanted to follow, so we had to switch around. And I learned to follow too because I wanted to get better. Getting close to men became less weird and touching people became uneventful. One particular act of this community that danced this way was that they would hug after practically every dance. It was common to hug during arrival and leaving of dances too. It didn’t matter who you were or if you knew each other, as long as the dance wasn’t painful then you would hug. So, even if you didn’t do the full body connection (it was an option) then you still experienced a significant form of touch at the end with hugs.
Anyway, I got used to touch and now it’s weird to be out in the world. I did all those things for so long that I’m completely open to hugging and touch unlike I was in the past. Sometimes me and a person will have a good interaction and reach a good conclusion during a meeting, my natural reaction now is to go for a hug and be like, “nice. Glad we got that done.” But gotta resist that as it’s pretty weird to do in the workplace but totally normal for me.
One of my best friends is an engineer from a more rural part of the country. We’ve hugged maybe a half dozen times over the years. She’s not comfortable hugging men even if they’re her best friend. I see this as normal for most of the US and it’s unfortunate. Touching men is just some weird taboo in the US unless you’re their romantic partner.
Where would I be without Chopin's music, without the sound of my friends' instruments as we jam, without the loving voices of friends and family?
Where would I be without vision, I couldn't see the works of Monet, Van Gogh, Miyazaki, Blizzard, Bethesda, or practically all code and screens and UI?
Touch feels nice, but as an American man, I was taught to touch only when necessary, lest the other person find it over the line. The OP author is an Italian female, so there's a cultural abd gender difference no doubt. But personally, I don't miss shaking hands or hugging, nevermind cheek kissing.
What? You must not watch sports then. High fives. Butt slaps. Chest bumps. etc. In fact, we might even say that there's a big problem with men inappropriately touching people, just look at the next potential Leader of the Free World, they both have a reputation for inappropriate touching. If you can be President of the United States while also "Grab 'em [women] by the pussy", I think we're being taught as men that we can easily get away with inappropriate touching.
Why did you think they would? Do you often find truth by generalizing from exceptions?
I guess if you want to claim that the behaviors of heads of state and professionally trained millionaire athletes is indicative of the experiences of your typical American male, you can suffer the credibility loss that such a claim entails.
When I had COVID-19, I was taken by an ambulance to the hospital. I was wearing two masks duct taped to my face and the paramedic was wearing one of those white bunny costumes where I could only see his eyes.
He strapped me in, and took my pulse and then placed his hand on my shoulder, which I thought was really unnecessary, because I was strapped pretty good to the bed, then I realized he touched my shoulder to calm me down, not to secure me from falls :)
Touch is extremely important for the development of the newborn, and I'm sure it is for the wellbeing of adults; just because we can do without or with less, doesn't mean we shouldn't have it.
Reducing touch is like a social circumcision, a barbarism disguised as serving a good purpose.
It used to annoy me, but I am used to it now, in fact I like it - from people I like. I almost never initiate a hug except to my most intimate family members
I have had the bother of people being predatory sexually and touching me. Really annoying.
I am a straightish man in my fifties. In Aotearoa
unfortunately this is sort of a catch-22. if you feel awkward about something, people will probably notice and perceive it that way also. I try to at least pretend that I don't feel awkward in these situations, which kinda works. it's sorta like the phenomenon where nobody questions a person with a hi-vis and a clipboard.
I moved to Finland where physical contact is less typical, and less common. But it seems that most of the people I've met seem to enjoy the hugs I take for granted and usually offer.
Some people say "No hugging", or "Ahh yes, you're British we must hug now.." with a bit of a smile. But on the whole I've always been one to touch friends and people I'm close to. I've always regarded physical contact as an extremely important part of communication.
The lack of hugs was indeed the strangest part of my time in Canada. Why not show the love.