Get $15k to move to Michigan and work remotely | Hacker News Reader

Get $15k to move to Michigan and work remotely

chicagobusiness.com

152 pointsavonmach276 comments

I live in Michigan so I have a few thoughts about living there...

If you love urban centers than Michigan might not be for you. There is Ann Arbor but it's a college town and not likely what you want.

Michigan has over 10,000 lakes. There are lots of parks and open state land. It's not just the tourist places like the dunes (where you can take off road vehicles on sand dunes) or rivers you can canoe on camping trips. Not far from me is a dog run (wouldn't really call it a park) that's over a hundred acres of state land. It's a chunk of a much larger thousands of acres section just meant for dogs. Other areas have horse trails and stuff.

There is a lot of opportunity to enjoy the great outdoors.

This is also going to mean that you aren't going to have great public transit in these places. The options are limited because it's off the beaten path.

I lived in Michigan until I was 35 and moved south in 2013. I have a litany of reasons for moving including soul-crushing endless winters, lack of reasonable summer, depressed economy, and a political landscape without an identity and with an extremely short memory (shorter than average in my view). I also spent my summers in Northern Michigan camping and have extremely fond memories of that. For the beauty that Michigan offers, you have to really, really enjoy the winter months and do OK with a lack of sun to make it there. I struggled something awful with Seasonal Affective Disorder [1] as an adult along with Vitamin D deficiency [2]. It's also worthwhile to look at things like insurance rates, vehicle registration, and cost of utilities for the municipalities listed. Take into account school systems if you have little ones - Michigan is not widely considered to have the best around, and routinely ranks in the bottom 1/3 of the States [3].

I clearly have a lot of bias against Michigan, so please take this for what it's worth. I did try to provide some backing for my bias, but I spent a long time saving to escape and if there's anyone aligned with my concerns, I hope I saved them a trip they'd regret.

[1] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/seasonal-affe... [2] https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Michigan/annual-days-... [3] https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education

> I have a litany of reasons for moving including soul-crushing endless winters, lack of reasonable summer, depressed economy, and a political landscape without an identity and with an extremely short memory (shorter than average in my view).

Cheers from Southern Urals, had a good laugh.

I live in Southern Ontario and now I'm wondering if I should be more depressed.

Well I can address each point for my situation, do you have: temperatures below -30°C for at least a week straight each winter, your summer starts in late May and ends mid August, the furthest window of planning for any private business is exactly one year, you have the same president for 21 years who was the head of a Homeland Security before that and is a leader of a political party which has a nickname "Swindlers and Thieves" in the opposition?

I think one thing which helps is indeed the sun, with SAD.

-30C does suck, but... and this is one downside of remote work, if you have to get out daily, drive to work, drive home, you're going to catch sun some of that time.

In many parts of Southern Ontario, you still get sun with the cold. Lots and lots of sunny days.

As a counter, I moved to Vancouver which is always 10C+ essentially in the winter, often 15C days, yet rain and cloud.

There, I experienced SAD for the first time in my life. And I ran away, moved back to Ontario, after 10 years of it.

And a day on the radio when the announcer said "It's now been 32 days since we've seen the sun". The guy wasn't kidding. It had been more than a month since the clouds parted during daylight hours.

That. Really. Sucks.

There was a stretch of 40 days or so where there was no sun even in the Bay Area. It is very rare, but it has happened (circa 2006).

No. Feeling better now.

Glad I could help.

Honestly it's less the weather and more the lack of sunlight in certain places in the midwest over the winter. After the two-three week autumn, it's just grey and brown and mud and salt for nearly half the year. Then sporadic snowstorms that your employer and school district makes you drive through.

Southern Ontario (assuming you mean GTA and SW Ontario) is a bit milder than most of Michigan. Detroit is usually a degree or two colder than Toronto in the winter months, for instance, and it's warmer than most of the state.

Honestly, same. I've been thinking about dipping to a coastal town somewhere with an English, French, or Spanish-speaking population.

GTA suburbs aren't bad but I love 10–20ºC and friendly people more.

GTA housing/rental market is beyond abysmal. A small 1bd costs you close to 2k CAD, and not to say the pay in tech here is much less than what you would get down in South.

Down to 1600-1700 now!

The bad tech pay continues to confuse me. It’s not for lack of talent imo.

Winter is going to be depressing without any getaways to Kuba though...

At the risk of sounding like a xenophobe, it is high rates of points based immigration. There's a lot of talent pouring in every year. There's definitely other factors too (Canadians don't seem great at starting tech companies that become big that usually pay higher wages).

It's not xenophobic to say that the market got flooded.

Brighton in the UK is nice. :-)

What's GTA?

Greater Toronto Area

Word. I moved from Michigan to northern Europe (Berlin) and miss Michigan's long, bright winter days. ;-)

Michigan's big cities are on about the same latitude as the French Riviera.

Latitude isn't everything, the Gulf stream and the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation keeps western Europe much warmer than it otherwise would be just based on it's latitude.

Fun fact that current is weakening somewhat because of climate change so European winters may get much worse. [0]

[0] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/ocean-current-keep...

I heard that more important than ocean currents is the Rocky Mountains, which causes the jet stream to go south, then north.

It's probably both I'm not a climate scientist so I can't really say one is more important than the other but the AMOC does bring warm water up the coast as well and if that goes away and the water cools the air brought over by the Gulf Stream will probably be colder as well.

OK, but I hope you realize that the Gulf stream is a water current whereas I,m talking about an air current.

They're about 4,500 miles (7,400km) apart so I'm fairly confident latitude isn't the only factor in their weather.

Grass is always greener! Cheers amigo, thanks for chiming in. Syracuse, NY

This gave me a solid chuckle, thanks for that.

As someone who lived in Michigan for over 25 years, let me just say that I share your biases, for similar reasons. Moving to California was the best thing ever for me, because the winter months didn't make me want to die.

As someone who grew up in Minnesota then lived in Wisconsin for many years I relate. Moving to Florida was the best thing for me, winter months no longer make me want to die.

yeah, but summer in Florida is hellishly hot, humid and buggy

Eh, if one can handle the humidity in Michigan, one can handle the humidity in Florida. It's just that you don't get much of a break from it (two months in the "winter" down here)

100%. The cornfields of the Midwest sweat as much as the humidity in many parts of Florida. Just thinking about the temperatures in MN and WI today (below freezing already!) causes tension in my back and my shoulder blades to flex. No thanks. I'll take relaxed muscles any day. It's a bit confusing to me to think my family is bundled up in winter outerwear already. I forget it's almost November thanks to upper 70 and lower 80 degree temps here(panhandle).

My thoughts exactly. I remember some summer mornings in Michigan where I felt like I was swimming through the air. It only got worse later in the day once it got warmer.

Meh. Depends where in Florida you are. I'm in the panhandle a few miles from the coast. Summer temps and humidity are comparable to the Midwest, except our humidity lasts for more than 5 months. The bugs (mosquitoes) where I'm at are actually less than where I came from thanks to, for better and for worse, the county spraying to keep their numbers down.

London is further north than Toronto or Michigan and we don't get anything this bad. Thank you, Gulf Stream.

Same reason NE Scotland is so lush at the latitude of Southern Alaska. :)

It is mad and being UK born and bred I sort of took it for granted.

In my head I had a mental picture that London was level with NY. Until one time when I was reading a discussion on here about farming and someone called the UK "the far north" and said that we are further north than all of the continental USA. Mind blown.

As an American this only hit home for me when visiting England in July. Sunset at 10pm and sunrise at 4am was lovely, But I wouldn't much like to visit in January with only six hours of daylight.

I live in Spain, and I can relate having good weather and plenty of sun light increases life-quality :)

I left Utah for exactly the same reasons and would never live there again under any circumstances.

Latitude is 41° to 48°, it's not even proper north.

I looked into it. There's literally only 5 zip codes this applies to. Benton Harbor, St. Joseph, Bridgman, Berrien Springs, Stevensville.

We do like the general area so my wife is now pushing for us to take advantage of this. I'm hesitant mainly because I don't want to move in the middle of a pandemic/get our house ready to be sold right away.

Where are the large dog runs at?

You mentioned a wife. I'm not going to presume that children are for sure in your future, but if that's something you and your wife have considered I would _strongly_ suggest you research the schools for those areas. I can comment via a previous teaching colleague that Benton Harbor was not a district you would want a child in if it could be avoided.

I don't know anything about Benton Harbor, but here in the United States being told a town has "bad schools" tends to be very highly correlated to large non-white population. I just looked it up and oh hey, Benton Harbor's population is 89% African-American.

Bad schools means the student population comes from households with low incomes, and hence are less likely to have home environments preferable for schoolwork compared to home environments areas with households with high incomes. i.e. "You are the company you keep", so people try to ensure their kids are surrounded by other kids with economically secure families, in the hopes that their influence will lead to higher probabilities of success.

Yeah. It’s a vicious cycle, particularly in predominantly-Republican/Southern states. There’s very, very, very little support for public education at a state level — or even nationally; I mean, our goddamn Secretary of Education is Betsy DeVos, who advocates for charter schools to a degree that is frankly sickening when the reality is that they are, on average, shit for the success of a community.

It’s gross, and has very recent racist roots. I went to high school with kids whose parents founded “white flight” private schools in my city.

It’s not that GP is racist, or something — but to deny the connection between race and public education in the US would be silly at best and malicious at worst (see, for example, Fox News/aforementioned DeVos)

"especially in republican states"...

meanwhile LA and NY public schools in black areas are among the worst in the country despite massive amounts of funding.

https://www.laweekly.com/california-is-home-to-some-of-ameri...

> A new analysis of the nation's public schools, by personal finance site WalletHub

That's a private company doing a performance on a public service? A personal finance company at that? How did they arrive at doing this analysis?

I even tried opening the linked analysis from two different IP addresses, but all I get is this message: [1]

> Oops! This IP address has been blocked due to too many requests. To unblock, please send your IP address via email to help@wallethub.com.

[1] https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-the-best-schools/5335/

Moving on, this is what the article says:

> The study was based on 17 metrics, including student-to-teacher ratio, dropout rates and average SAT and ACT scores. Compared with the other 49 states and the District of Columbia, California ranked 47th in reading test scores, 46th in math test scores and dead last in student-teacher ratios.

I'm very curious about those metrics. Because the three that are mentioned only give a superficial glance of what's going on. Correlation is not causation, for one. Are drop out rates or low SAT/ACT scores directly related to the quality of education? Or the poor social economic situation of the households in which children grow up?

Without follow up, I'd be very careful about drawing conclusions.

> “More resources do not always correlate with better academic performance, as our findings demonstrate,”

Of course not. Then there's also the larger debate whether academic performance alone should be the main goal of public schools? Isn't the purpose of providing an education, ensuring that the next generation grows up into stable, independent and healthy adults?

For instance, she push towards standardized testing in which private publishers such as Pearson have come to play a crucial role is something that does deserve a discussion in it's own right as well, no? [2]

[2] https://qz.com/398279/watch-john-oliver-dismantle-american-s...

>Are drop out rates or low SAT/ACT scores directly related to the quality of education?

Like what, students know the material perfectly, but drop out and lower their scores for lulz?

I could access your [1] from wallethub, for what it's worth, and... you're better off blocked. I tried to find any sort of external link to citations but could only find this blurb at the end:

> Sources: Data used to create this ranking were collected from the U.S. Census Bureau, U.S. Department of Education, National Conference of State Legislatures, National Center for Education Statistics, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Western Interstate Commission for Higher Education, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, Child and Adolescent Health Measurement Initiative, Education Commission of the States, U.S. News & World Report, College Board, Ballotpedia, ACT, National Governors Association, State Educational Technology Directors Association and Zendrive.

Source: Secret Order of the Forsaken Keebler elves.

So, funnily enough, Michigan ranks above California on USNews's k-12 education metric, 29:37. [0] So does Texas, at 33. And Missouri. And Virginia. And Florida.

I think your stereotype of "smart liberals spending money for a good education" and "dumb hicks throwing their kids futures away for a penny" might be a liiiiitle bit off.

0: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education

whats your point? are you supposed to willingly condemn your child to a bad school because of that fact?

condemn them... its got just as much of a chance to save them.

I'm in none of those zip codes and I've visited numerous places that were not there.

Unfortunately, I could not find the large dog run on a map. I know where it is and the signs call it out if you are there.

Different places have a different culture. It all kind of depends on what you're in to. For example, I know some people who love the Traverse City area and some others who have been there for a bit and are ready to move. That's an area worth looking at.

If you want to be close to things and like urban-ish then there is Ann Arbor. The train to Chicago goes right through town. The express ways also make it easy to get to a lot of places as fast as you can in Michigan. While it's about as urban as it gets in Michigan you can also get out of it pretty quickly into the outdoors.

Michigan has a fair amount of variety. That's why people can have such different experiences.

I visited my parents the other day. On the drive down their street I passed a couple dozen wild turkeys. While I was at their house an 8 point buck walked through the back yard. The deer there know it's safe enough that you can be outside, reading, and drinking a coffee and the deer wont run off.

It's a different pace of life where I am at. Not every place is like that.

I mean the $15k moving incentive applies only if you move to one of those 5 zip codes. It's near the bottom of www.movetomichigan.org.

I think I may have passed by a dog run sign, come to think of it. Whenever we've visited we didn't have our dogs with us, though. If we moved we would try to hunt them down though.

We live in the suburbs, not downtown, so we're not super urban. It would still be a bit of a culture shock to live there I think, as SW Michigan is significantly more rural than where we are at, but we mainly went for the nature.

You know those stories about cities emptying out and leasing prices dropping?

Thats because millions of people are moving in the middle of a pandemic, even inviting movers into their homes and driving shared uhaul trucks.

If you’re “at risk” then caveat emptor, if not then “middle of a pandemic” is not an excuse for everything.

Without saying what specifically, there are risk factors in the family.

The downside of “doing what lots of other people are doing” during a pandemic is that when the pandemic ends, which may be a few months from now if a vaccine is effective, you’ll have placed yourself at a huge disadvantage when the same forces invert. I say this as someone who lived in NYC way back during 9/11 and thought the city would never recover. It absolutely did, almost immediately, and I felt very silly for the next decade or so.

You mean for an owner or mortgage holder?

Or you got underwater and tied up with life wherever you went to?

A little bit of column A a little bit of column B?

Detroit and Grand Rapids are great urban centers.

The public transit in those cities is non-existent compared to urban centers like Chicago or Seattle.

I'd actually compare GR at least closer to something like Asheville, only a bit smaller. It gets decent concerts, has a nice craft drink scene and lots of fun places to go, but won't compare to some place like a Chicago or Seattle if that's what you want.

"urban centers with mass transit" is moving the goalposts a little, isn't it?

For many people the car free lifestyle is the main appeal of urban centres. More not being specific enough than moving goal posts imo.

Public transit was mentioned in the original comment.

I grew up in MI. I doubt the 15k would go very far. You should instead move to Michigan for the beautiful lakes and rivers, and the low cost of living (which is often much higher on the aforementioned lakes - especially the tourist towns in western MI). As with any place, the most desirable locations, i.e. Ann Arbor, are more expensive.

It's also a place where most of the investment, whether corporate, private, or civic is in suburban areas, so at least for people of means, suburban life is very comfortable.

A few cities have made comebacks (Detroit to an extent, Grand Rapids) but it's still marginal compared to the wealth of the suburbs. Rural and post-industrial areas can be very bleak.

But for anyone imagining it as an escape: it is as complex a place as any other place in the US today.

Reminds me of Tulsa Remote [0] which was discussed here [1] and again with some results [2].

0: https://tulsaremote.com/

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18463553

2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22458342

I applied to them, and I'm currently at the final steps. Not confirmed though.

Let me know if you get in! I've been in Tulsa Remote since April. It's by far the most fleshed out of these programs: a couple of hundred people have been accepted over the last couple of years, sixty in the last month or so. Much more of a focus on community vs just cash, as there are fun events. I'm working on a comparison site for these relocation incentive programs called https://payyoutomove.com. They appear similar but greatly differ in payout stipulations.

I suspect this would be more effective if these towns offered free gigabit internet access for 5 years if you moved to them.

You could have this today basically in any home in Chattanooga, TN.

I think the most recent price is $68.99/ mo. 10gig is $299

It's a big county. You can live downtown. Suburban. Or quite rural all within access to the 'smart grid' / gig.

So 10g would be $18,000 for 5 years of service. Less for 1G of course.

There were people I knew who moved to Kansas when Google installed fiber there because they wanted a lower cost of living and could work from anywhere if they had good internet service.

If someone wants a decent side hustle a service for finding places to live that have 1G+ internet + enough amenities for your typical engineering type might make decent bank with referral fees. Collecting all that into one location.

Governors underestimate the importance of internet connectivity in any area.

Making sure there's FTTH at at least 1gbps down / 200mbps up is key.

15k to move in a depressed area sounds like a dumb bribe attempt to me.

Sounds like Nomad List: https://nomadlist.com/

As someone who recently (-ish) moved to Oak Ridge, TN where we still have shitty Comcast and AT&T service I really wish we had what Chattanooga has. I love the area, but I do not love the internet service providers I have to choose from.

I live at the other end of the state outside of Lexington TN and would gladly suffer Comcast and AT&T rather than TDS and their glitchy DSL service.

Very true, I could have it much worse. Honestly Comcast isn't that bad, but I deeply resent their ridiculous bandwidth cap when their service is so expensive.

> Chattanooga, TN.

Such an awesome city, too. It's close to Atlanta and Charlotte, I just wish they'd fund the high speed rail network meant to connect the three cities.

I got really into this idea a few years ago.

It still gets floated from time to time (I recently saw high speed rail maps making the rounds).

IF/ when ATL > Chattanooga > Nashville are connected by a leg, it will absolutely change the region.

I have "heard" - completely so-and-so said - that much of the needed infrastructure exists. The key is repurposing existing rail lines and getting right of way.

I think there was a study commissioned that laid out the whole plan for a (3-5 stop) between downtown ATL and Nashville with a stop in Chattanooga.

How could you possibly make any use of 10g at your house? I guess you could run a web hosting business.

I wonder how many customers actually do the networking on their end to make sure they aren't the bottleneck (10g ports/proper cabling and switches) versus people who just think "it's a bigger number and I have the cash... Sure"

Residential Internet almost never guarantees speed to the Internet backbone, it is just advertising the Ethernet link speed. There are subscriptions with guaranteed performance, but at a different price.

My home Internet connections are 1 Gbps and 300 Mbps (2 links from 2 providers, I work from home and I need the uptime) for less than $10 each, but the transfer speeds are close to these numbers only for local servers, getting out of the country is about half these speeds.

That is really insightful and kind of brilliant. I agree what would be a great way for these programs to differentiate themselves.

Best internet I ever used was the municipal fiber in Wilkes County NC (a mostly rural mountain county in NW NC, it does have one larger town which is economically struggling). It was actually better performing and more reliable than the gigabit I used in a skyscraper in Seattle.

That's about the only thing Wilkes county has going for it though. Well, that and housing costs that are much more affordable than most of the more touristy mountain counties nearby.

You can get 10g in Utah, it's only ~$250/mo...

Apparently not in Logan sadly.

Somewhat less expensive than $15,000.

I've been quoted in the $10k+ range just to get fiber installed, if the street or area doesn't already have fiber running through it.

just did the math here, $4,200 for 5 years.

I'm forwarding this thread to some local leaders to see if we can get a similar relocation package here (Chattanooga, TN)

Sometimes it is not, not if you wanna pay someone to wire you up. Also sometimes it is just literally impossible to even ask.

How big is the set of people that can work remotely from wherever they choose to live and also would value $15k enough for it to play a significant role in that choice?

I’m guessing the younger worker, 20 to 35, or the older worker near retirement who was thinking of Michigan anyway.

For the younger worker, it’s smart marketing. “Say, are you sick of staying on a treadmill, watching your dream of owning a home in a decent neighborhood slip away? Effectively losing money every year as the real estate market skyrockets out of sight, unwilling to bet on the “greater fool” dynamic of overheated markets to be house-poor for the majority of your adult life? That place/State where you’re working hates you, and they show it by making everything worthwhile too expensive and too time-consuming.

But we in Michigan love you and will care for you and we prove it in the most American way possible by giving you $15K upfront. In some of our towns, that’s almost a down payment on a house, a nice house in a safe neighborhood that would cost twice/three times/four times/...as compared to that overhyped overpriced tech slum you’re “living” in now. In a market much less likely to collapse than where you’re struggling to get a down payment.

And with people who are friendly and think you and your income are really quite amazing and will bend over backwards to help you out. They will be genuinely happy to have you as a new resident of your new town. Won’t that feel wonderful, as you settle into that town that fits you like a warm glove on a cold winter night.”

And there are many towns like that in every State of the Union. But Michigan offers $15K in good faith to get you started. Michigan wants you. You are special to Michigan. That’s a powerful message...

And the older worker will have much of their retirement funds spent wherever they choose to retire to. Why not spend them in a place that expresses its appreciation upfront in the form of a love letter written in gold?

Many white collar workers who aren't programmers. I am a mechanical engineer doing math modelling so I can theoretically work remotely. I make about 100k/year, 15k is a years worth of savings or a years worth of overtime (post tax). With that being said, it wouldn't cover the cost of a move and so would only be tempting if I already had family living in the area.

There are a significant portion of people who do work that can be remote. I know we're on HN where we assume everyone is in the top 1-5% of earners (nationally) and is an engineer/cto/ceo/founder/gururockstarninja but these offers seem much more aimed at the clerical office worker type or some other lower paid work. I doubt many engineers take these offers up. The ones I read about the people who took up the Tulsa ones didn't sound like engineers.

Small? I guess the set of people who think that a lumpsum of 15k is better than higher salary, might actually be big? 15k is more like a rounding error when it comes to tech salary. I am not even sure this would make any difference if they paid you 15k each year for life. Then maybe it becomes attractive again :D.

New CS grads with student loans.

Really? I’d guess one year’s difference in starting salary dwarfs $15K. I wonder if anyone’s got good (pre/post covid) statistics.

Does this difference in pay for remote workers based on city actually exist yet? I feel like a bunch of people are e.g. just telling Google they’re going to work out of Mountain View or New York and counting on never being asked to actually go to the office.

It does exist. I work for a ~30K software company, and they have a detailed pay multiplier scale depending on where you live. Furthermore, they will adjust your salary if you move from one area to another, and the rates are not insignificant.

This is the stupidest thing.

You're not worth more if you live in a different city.

I have yet to hear a better definition of economic worth than a buyer and seller agreeing on a price. Clearly, if an employer of 30k people is finding sellers of labor to agree to a lower price in certain areas, then sellers of labor in that area are "worth" that much. Similarly, the employer of 30k people isn't paying people more in certain areas for no reason either. They must have ran out of options for cheaper labor before they decided to pay more.

Sure, but sellers are inclined to shop around as well.

The seller has to agree on the price. You're hearing lots of unhappy sellers.

In the pre-pandemic days when companies encouraging remote work were fewer and further between, it was very typical in my experience for them to pay market rate for your actual location - whatever location you met the qualifications for legal residence in.

I know of at least a few places that do/did sort of a globally averaged salary - their rates aren’t adjusted for location, but if you’re in a major North American city you might be disappointed. If you’re rural, or in less expensive parts of the world, their salaries were well above market.

Tax domicile is a real concern. The BigTech firms are smart enough to know and care where your actual legal residence is, and presumably they’re not going to let you pretend to be in SF to collect SF-adjusted wages while actually living in Michigan and collecting their legal benefits.

I don't think it would be appealing from people who could choose anywhere to live, there are cheaper places, places with lower taxes and so on. But for people with family in the area, within two hours of Chicago, the $15k, and the other more general benefits, lower real estate prices and taxes, less traffic etc, it could be a good reason to pick one of these cities to move to.

It's small. But as an avid fisherman and boater who would like to live in either Wisconsin or Michigan, this could be a deciding factor (remote work is only temporary for me right now, but theoretically it might make a difference for me, though the Michigan winters would probably still be a non-starter)

It doesn't have to be huge, I don't think you're going to get a ton of people to move based on this financial incentive alone. A lot of people might have friends, family, or other ties to the region, and this is just what they need to convince them to make the switch. 15k isn't much, but it will cover a smaller move and closing costs pretty well for a lot of people. This is especially true if you're already in the Indiana/Wisconsin/Ohio area.

15k is a free down payment on a home out there, basically. Not a bad offer to be fair.

I grew up in Saint Joseph unbelievably (which is one of the zip codes that qualify).

AMA if anyone is interested in this option (now live in California because of beforementioned soul crushing winters and love of mountains).

Great option for families primarily. Saint Joseph and Stevensville schools are extremely good (like at least private school in the bay area good). Beach life is great in the summer and the fresh water lakes are great if you are into sort of the fishing sort of outdoors. Houses are cheap with a huge amount of lawn (this can be viewed as a downside too).

That said, it is the midwest. You should like watching football and basketball. You should be ok hanging out with Republicans but it is only R leaning, not a crazy MAGA area. There is not a ton of bars and restaurants and church is a major factor in a lot of people's social lives. (But kids soccer games, super bowl parties, etc. are too.)

It sounds like you're saying all of the midwest is like that, which it definitely is not. Madison, where I live, is highly liberal, church is definitely not core to the social fabric, and we have a passionate soccer community (point being: hardly as limited as made out to be).

Madison? A capital city and a college town? Highly liberal?

I don't think people define the midwest by the midwests' Urban cores. They define it by fields of food and suburban sprawl.

I think you'd want to at least consider defining it by where most people actually live in the Midwest, no?

Regardless, generalizations about the Midwest don't make any sense because it's so varied depending on where you live.

I am not, I am only talking about the five or six zip codes this applies to.

Sheesh, you’re painting “the Midwest” with a HUGE brush that’s not fair and not even accurate in many cases for a region of the country as large and disparate as this one-aren’t you?

I’ve lived in, worked in, or visited lots of the Midwest. It’s fair to generalize about the Midwest- the region has a distinct group of related cultures. Same is true of the west coast. Sure, it exists on a spectrum and is far less true of the cities than of the exurbs and smaller towns, but I don't think the GP was being unfair.

I don't think the GP was being unfair.

Ok, you're allowed to think that. I just think saying "it's the midwest" and then bringing attention to a list of social-indicators that aren't really specific to or even unique about the Midwest is by my definition a very incomplete portrait of the region and the people (like me) living here.

I’m talking about five zip codes that this policy extends to and I grew up there and visit often. I’m pretty sure this pretty accurately is the centroid of the culture - not saying there aren’t other subcultures.

St. Joseph is a quaint tourist town. But Ann Arbor, Lansing, and other towns are fun too. I haven't lived in MI but visited often. Lake effect snow is a bitch :(

My understanding is that AA, Lansing, and beyond don't qualify. It's basically Berrien county.

Is Benton Harbor getting better or worse?

I wish I could report it was getting better but my perception is that it is not.

Honestly, if I'm going to move somewhere for money and work remotely the biggest incentive is zero personal income tax. For that, I'd rather move to Texas (Austin), Washington (Seattle), Florida (Miami), or Nevada (Las Vegas), all of which are also more appealing as city destinations than anything in Michigan.

If you move to Puerto Rico and quality for Act 20 or 22 then you end up paying almost no Federal income tax as well.

https://www.sovereignman.com/tax/how-you-can-move-to-puerto-...

The nice thing about Texas is you get the double whammy of a zero personal income tax AND a very wealthy state (extremely well funded public uni system, largest sovereign wealth fund of any state). It's also very culturally vibrant and is part of the country's third coast, for better and worse in terms of hurricanes. I think there used to be more cheap large plots of land available but that may be a bit harder to find these days. The missus and I are considering moving there eventually, some of my college friends who have been living there for a long time seem really happy.

I absolutely do NOT recommend Miami if you indeed want your money to go far. Try Tampa or Space Coast instead.

edit to add this: Miami is certainly a nice place to visit, but not to live.

What's wrong with miami? Looks overall cheaper than anything on the west coast to me. Loved it all the times I've been, but the only things putting me off are the rising water table and hurricanes. My buddy living down there has had some serious flood damage to his home a few years back. I guess you could build on the second story with parking underneath like they do here in the west and buy another century of rising sea levels or so, but I didn't see any homes that looked like that so I guess zoning is probably some nonsense.

The times you’ve been there, did you make the rounds at popular touristy places? Rent at those places are extremely high, $3000+ for a 2 bed in heart of Brickell. If you move in lands away from touristy place it’s not that impressive. Home insurance is high because of hurricane / flooding risks.

Like I said, not a good place if you want your money to go far. Plenty of things to like about it if you visit, like the food, the pretty scenery at popular places.

From the looks of zillow I'm seeing houses in north beach and the islands in the biscayne bay for roughly 300-400k cheaper than a comparable house in LA, sometimes way cheaper. I mean look at this deal right on Normandy Isle:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1340-Marseille-Dr-Miami-B...

That place is $1m cheaper than the same number of bedrooms and similar square footage in LA, where you have at least 30 minutes of traffic separating you from the waterfront:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1633-S-Shenandoah-St-Los-...

Maybe if your perspective is other parts of Florida or the South, then yeah there is some sticker shock, but compared to CA, miami is a steal for how lively of a city and truly connected to the water it is imo. When we would visit my friends we would spend so much time hanging out at sand bars, riding the jetskis to restaurants, seeing so much wildlife and nature along the way. So many people just have a boat or some jetskis docked near their property. It's night and day different than how the waterfront is managed anywhere in CA, where inlets are used for storm water alone rather than recreation and the beach might be separated from the city by a highway (in the case of malibu or santa monica), or proximal to a refinery or some other piece of heavy industry (like in Manhattan beach where people pay millions to have a waterfront view of the shit plant in el segundo).

It's sinking

Tampa is just outstanding. 7 years in and I have nothing but good things to say.

Michigan is a beautiful state. Lake Michigan beaches are the best of the great lakes.

However, transportation between the two cities is terrible. Worst travel experience I've ever had. And I've been to India.

I landed in Chicago, and wanted to take the train to Detroit. Had to get to the Train station from the airpot, on time. So was in a hurry.

1. Got off the airport, waited in line to buy Metro ticket, on some antiquated machines for buying tickets. Italian couple in front of me got confused, and gave up. I ended up completing their transaction for a week long metro pass by mistake.

2. Get off the metro. Ask for directions to the train stations, get pointed in the wrong direction. Waste 15 minutes.

3. Walk back, my flip flops break, need to change shoes. Unpack my luggage in middle street. Walk towards station see a pigeon get hit by a taxi. Walk further, and a sky scrapper is blocked off with police cars, helicopter flying around. Think its some sort of suicide going to on. Keep walking. Later found out they were filming spider man.

4. Make it to train station, wait in line to buy tickets. Tickets are sold out. Girl in front of me in the line starts crying, has a break down. No tickets left.

5. Decide to walk to greyhound station. Police car outside. Think thats a little unusual. Quickly figure out that this must be a popular way for poor black people to travel between the two cities. Go in, lines everywhere. Its crowded chaos in there. Go to washroom, smells like urine. Wait in information line. I've never seen anything like it. The guy in the line besides me asks a question from the info guy. Gets in some sort of 30 second argument. The attendant, calls in the cops. And the cops arrest the guy! WTF. My turn to ask a question. I ask if I can buy a ticket to Detroit. The response "who told you that. You've been bamboozled". I don't don't even know what to make of that. Decide to leave.

6. Walk back to the train station. Get told about Magabus. Wait 5 hours. Bus shows up after midnight. Driver is pissed about people having too much luggage. Starts charing people extra for it. Bus is crowded. I end up sitting above the wheel well the whole night. Back hurts the next day.

Never again!

I'm sure you had a harrowing travel experience and just wanted to share your story. I'm just not sure I understand the relevance of most of your points with regard to the transportation between the two cities.

The easiest way to get from Chicago O'Hare to Detroit is flying (ORD-DTW is a straight-shot with Delta). The second easiest way is driving.

If you want to take the train, you have to plan ahead just a little. Know that the Amtrak from Chicago to Detroit departs from Union Station. The CTA will get you from O'Hare to Clinton, and then you just have to walk north 2 blocks. That's it.

(Mind you, I visited Chicago pre-Google Maps and as a poor student. It can be done. I've also done Greyhound and yes I stopped in Chicago -- this was in 2002. Bus service in America is certainly very different from in most European countries, where it is used by students.)

On #5: Why is it relevant that the poor people were black, or that staff who were treating people poorly were black?

Honestly, my worst encounter with racism to this day. I've never seen anything like it. I had these notions of the USA having a reputation for customer service. If this is how you get treated when you are poor and black and relying on a bus to get you between cities. Its very relevant. But since I figured it will offend people. Decided to edit, and leave that out.

Fair enough, however it wasn't clear to me from your comment that you believed they were being mistreated because they were black. Had that been more explicit, I would have understood the inclusion of race at that part.

It is relevant for the same reason we still have BLM protests in pretty much every big city and every state.

Travelling between cities is not particularly easy to do without _any_ up front planning in the US. Even if it were possible on some routes, I personally would never plan a trip (even just going between Philly and NYC) without buying tickets ahead of time.

I originally did buy a train ticket. But I did not get to the train station on time. So I missed the train. Wanted to get the next one, and it was sold out.

Great idea, until your flight is 2 hours late, and you missed your train

So your plan is to just not plan ahead because the plan might fall apart?

I would say planning ahead (if just a little) is relevant in any country.

I flew into Seoul last year thinking I could easily book a rail trip to Busan (international flight arrivals are always uncertain so I didn't want to pre-book train tickets and risk missing my train due to a delayed flight).

Given that the Seoul-Busan route is the most popular and frequent plus transportation in Korea is amazing, I figured surely there'd be an abundance of connectivity options between its two largest cities, so I didn't think I'd have any trouble getting on a train. But nooo, they'd sold out for the evening. [1]

I had to spend the night in Seoul and try again the next day. Train tickets do sell out in every country, not just in America.

[1] they did have a standing-only (i.e no seat) ticket on a 5-hour local train. I had luggage, was jetlagged, so there was no way I would have been able to stay standing for a 5-hour journey

Actually this reminds me of something kind of related. I booked a ticket to Dubai, going through Abu Dhabi. Or so I thought. I was super surprised, once I landed in Abu Dhabi that the connection was on bus. And almost missed the bus, because of a bathroom break I took once I landed. Then had to rush across the airport, to figure out where the buses where that connect. I think it was 2 hour bus ride. But the original ticket was booked online for an airplane.

That sounds deeply unfortunate. For future reference, if you're on that much of a time constraint, you'll run into issues with a lot of American cities even in the Northeast if you try to cut it close via train (my experiences have been with NYC Penn -- YMMV). For the sake of argument, I am pretty sure natives would have given you the ol' caveat emptor and told you to just take a car/taxi, and I think that's usually your strongest option in that situation.

Otherwise, you're relying on a dependency chain that's out of your control -- ticket machines, multiple trains having both availability and uptime. I get a little confused when you get to the part about Greyhounds and the Megabus. Why not rent a car or take an uber at that point? Sure, it's expensive, but at a certain point, it's worth considering how much your peace of mind is worth.

The greyhound station in Chicago is always very weird. I live near by and there are cops in front often when I drive by. I think it's because we have two other very nice train stations so the Greyhound cant compete.

I think Greyhound stations in every city are weird, it's part of the allure! I do enjoy the megabus station in Reno, it's outside a casino and sometimes you'll get security guards who drag a person out and throw them on (one time a guy was so inebriated I'm not really sure he knew where he was or where he was going)

Have you considered renting a car?

They're close to having a train that runs between Ann Arbor and Detroit. They're discussing a train between East Lansing and Detroit.

The state is behind on public transportation and in Detroit when they had the money the counties couldn't agree and now that they do there's no money.

But Michigan's beauty cannot be matched by any other state except possibly California.

When I was a kid, I used to take the train from Detroit to Ann Arbor all the time. My parents would drop me at the station in Detroit, and my friend's mom would pick me up in A2 and I'd spend the weekend at their house. It wasn't exactly a long journey, but it saved everyone a bunch of windshield time, and it was a cool independent thing for a nine-year-old to be able to do solo.

I had no idea that train didn't run anymore. I wonder what happened to it!

Seconding the natural beauty, though. I finally had the sense to spend a good chunk of last summer up north, too.

I know that U of M runs a bus several days per week into downtown Detroit. Pretty certain you have to either be a student or work for the university to take it though.

According to Wikipedia the Ann Arbor to Detroit train was discontinued in 1984.

I took the train a few years ago. It most definitely existed then, and still appears to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverine_(train)

The train exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverine_(train)

They're close to building a commuter train to replace the Amtrak for daily services that are hopefully more punctual by avoiding Chicago.

The Amtrak Wolverine still runs AFAIK. I used it a few years ago. They're close to building a dedicated commuter train.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverine_(train)

> But Michigan's beauty cannot be matched by any other state except possibly California.

Nowhere in the midwest, including Michigan, is even remotely comparable to the mountain west (Colorado/Utah etc) in terms of natural beauty.

I'd throw in Montana and Wyoming

Considering Detroit's history as the motor city, why didn't you just rent a car?

My sister travelled on the train between the two cities and had a nice experience. So I wanted to go by train. I had a ticket, which I bought online, but I missed the train, and next one was sold out. But if I do go between the cities again, I will probably fly. But taking a car would be interesting too.

If you do get the chance to take the train, I recommend it. My wife likes Chicago and since we're in Ann Arbor we go about once a year. I refuse to drive to Chicago because it just makes me mad, so we take the train. Hop on in Ann Arbor, we bring some snacks. I spend three hours reading/surfing the web, then we get to downtown Chicago. I'm not angry and tired so we can go out and enjoy the evening or activity.

Thanks, I will try. I love trains. I was in Europe this past year, and hopped around from city center to city center on 200km/h Trains. It was great.

I remember driving through Chicago as being frustrating too. I was going though the city maybe more than 10 years ago. It was actually super scary. Lots of construction on the highways. Lanes blocked off. And I remember a few times where I had to go from almost a stopped position, across a few lanes of full speed traffic, to get to an exit or a booth.

The train between Chicago and Detroit is nice, which is why it is frequently sold out. You had bad luck that day, maybe you’ll get the chance to try again some time in the future.

Ignoring the “metro” train stations, there are 4 major train stations in downtown Chicago. People are pretty helpful, but if you don’t specify which station you need to get to you are going to get pointed in a lot of different directions. Now you know which station you need, so it would be a lot easier next time.

The Greyhound station... well, unfortunately there are a lot of naïve people out there that get paid $50 or something to carry an “extra” suitcase to Chicago “for a friend” who will pick it up. The cops are always there because they know how it all works.

One way car rentals are expensive AF.

I wonder when the governmental hammer is going to come down on remote work. How long until states decide they need to "do something" about companies headquartered there that don't participate in the state economy beyond utility bills. We've already seen how they react when a company dares to feed its employees lunch.

I'm actually out of the loop on the lunch thing. Is California making companies treat that as income now?

I think it was an issue with the private cafeterias having a negative affect on surrounding businesses.

https://sf.eater.com/2018/7/25/17614570/san-francisco-corpor...

I have worked remotely from Ann Arbor for 7 years. currently work for a large SF based startup. AMA.

Michigan is great in a lot of ways, depending on your interests.

Do you have bears there?

No bears in the Ann Arbor area sadly. You have to go a bit north to get bears. But those areas are easily reached via car. My parents for example live 3 hours away (220-ish miles) and they get a couple of bears a year bumming around.

Yes, but I've lived here for 20 years and have never run into one while camping/canoeing. They are more active (but still sparse) in the Upper Peninsula.

Yes, black bears in the northern Lower peninsula and the Upper peninsula. Also likely cougars, but the DNR wont admit it.

The DNR has actually changed tune on this recently: https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/michigan/2020/08/12/mich...

Is Zingerman's really that good?

So Zingermanns has several restaurants. The Deli is overrated IMO, but the Roadhouse, Roadshow, and Miss Kim's are really great.

Anecdotally, I know several people who would end up making less if they moved, because their company would “adjust” their salary if they move to a different tax regime. And moving when not telling their employer would probably result in a termination of employment. Essentially this would offset a 15k bonus, since the company would probably take that into account when “adjusting”.

[edited a word or three]

Wow, I would never consider there to be any requirement to tell my employer that I moved somewhere else. It would have to be really prominent in new employee orientation etc. for me to even remember the requirement if I'd been there a few years.

Although even with a salary decrease commensurate with a decreased cost of living, there could still be better quality of life, depending on the specific locations. Moving from the Bay Area to a suburban area like in the article, for the right type of person, could be a massive improvement.

This is less “your employer” and more “the IRS” causing this to be important, and your offer letter / employment contract almost definitely has a location in it. If you work from a state where your employer doesn’t have a tax nexus, for instance, working there can cause one.

Until we were all working remotely, this usually didn’t come up - if someone disappears from the office, HR will follow up to make sure you aren’t causing a tax problem. Now it’s a mess.

You have to tell your employer where you live for tax purposes. You can lie, but that’s called tax fraud.

Some places (most?) have additional payroll taxes even if the business isn't based in the state. Found this out the hard way after moving to Oregon.

I don't see why there would be tax fraud if you file state tax returns accurately. Presumably you'd file two returns, one to the state you work in asking for your refund as you've been living outside the state all year, and one to the state you live in paying your income tax.

As for the IRS, they get their money no matter where you live, including nowhere...

Your employer is liable for state & local employment taxes and may also have to fulfill additional obligations like filing for a business license wherever employees are located. That's why they need to know.

Your employer is liable for state and local employment taxes wherever you go. They need to know where you live.

This is a rather cynical take, assuming that companies would somehow "steal" this incentive from people. Geo-based compensation is real, of course, but so are the massive cost of living differences between say, San Francisco and Ann Arbor.

It's not cynical, it's absolutely true. When I lived in Austin companies would adjust peoples pay down when they moved there because there was no state income tax in Texas so they'd claim they were being paid the same and the employees were being "greedy" by wanting the same salary.

The real reason is always the supply curve and demand curve of labor in the new location mean the employee will accept the lower pay.

I explicitly stated that geo-based compensation plans are normal. What I'm calling out is a baseless claim that companies will also adjust so that they can "steal" the one time $15k incentive. After all...if they take the incentive away, the incentive no longer exists and is useless.

I live in Chicago and just bought a house in Michigan, so this seemed interesting.

A couple things though: 1) it’s not 15000, it’s 5000 a year, if you get Michigan drivers license, move to Michigan permanently, and work for a non Michigan company. 2) it’s only a few zip codes, which, while those town are really nice, are further from Chicago than most people want to drive regularly. We had our limit to an hour, which gets you to New Buffalo/Union Pier, which is not on the list.

Overall, 5k a year isn’t worth my time.

I live in downtown Detroit, don't drive, walk, bike, take public transit or Lyft everywhere (but mostly walk). And honestly love it. Feel free to ask me anything

How’s it been in downtown lately? I know it’s had a revival over the years, but I’ve heard that over the past few months (especially after COVID hit) that the crime/murder rate has been rising. This at least according to some police officers I know.

I can only speak to downtown, and it has been more sedate but I haven't felt less safe. I don't eat indoors so the recent weather change has meant more time at home. My favorite thing about Detroit winter, the skating rink, is going up right now (probably the only thing I'll do outside till spring 2021) But, downtown isn't the same as the other neighborhoods, I don't think I'll be going farther than a mile from home for a while

There is zero murder problem in downtown detroit.

I used to live in Lafayette park (adjacent to downtown detroit) in a coop building with a doorman next to a several hundred acre park with a view of the river. I moved out just as a former US senator was moving into my floor.

Hrm... no details on if you're self-employed. Grew up in SE Michigan. I visit now and then, but have no major reason to move back. This on its own probably wouldn't be enough, but... having to demonstrate I work for another company vs just being self-employed seems a bit short sighted. Is the goal to get people to move there? Or are they trying to achieve something more?

If states really want to attract high income remote workers, they should construct communities specifically designed for them.

I’d like to see a town that isn’t meant to have a lot of commuters. Have lots of public space and encourage social organizations to connect people together.

If I leave SV, I'd prefer it not be for another place crawling with engineers.

Totally.As if prices wont skyrocket then. I prefer to live modestly and low-profile among "normal" people.

This is an interesting topic for discussion on it's own.

As an engineer, I get a lot of talanted engineer contact through work (remotely). I'm really happy to not have that in my personal life. I lived in SF for 6 months and couldn't wait to get away.

Michigan is crawling with engineers already just not the software kind.

I thought that's what I wanted to but then I moved from SF to Berlin and it was so incredibly refreshing. Your Uber driver isn't pitching you on their idea, people at bars actually do normal jobs or are actual starving artists, and no one gives a shit (outside of a very small circle) how much money your startup raised

You might enjoy reading about tony hsieh (of Zappos) Downtown Project.

It didn’t go well, but interesting nonetheless.

Yeah, put the money towards people starting bars and restaurants. Make sure the internet is excellent. That would be a starting point.

And high speed internet, preferably close to a decent college and magnet schools if they want to think long term.

Devtools FTW, removing the popover, and body class to read TFA.

Also Ublock Origin w/ script disabled for the site.

Yeah, I tend to leave scripts enabled. Will probably try disabling on some sites in the future.

There is a qualified talent pool in Michigan. U of M graduates can’t wait wait to exit Michigan. Lack of cultural identity and diversity beyond academic hate. Grand Rapids is Struggling with holding black art exhibitions at Rosa Park Circle , please don’t fall for this . Back to Philadelphia I go and yes I have a Masters

Here's the website with the program. The actual article is behind a paywall.

https://movetomichigan.org

I got a little excited when I read this, and then realized I was conflating Michigan with Wyoming. I'll try to explain why briefly:

It has been brought up in passing in my friend circles that an influx of lefty techies into wyoming could feasibly tip the election scales. Because it's so dang small, the blue-red delta is around 128k people [1]. In the scope of things, drop in the bucket.

Assuming that any significantly sized business will attract infrastructure to match, you'd really only need a couple apple-sized entities (cupertino: ~15,000 employees, ~60k pop total [2][3]) to make that happen. Assuming that there would be some amount of 'bleed' (suburbs et al) you might not even need that.

Mind you, I'm not suggesting this as a serious course of action, but it does make for some entertaining showerthought fodder.

[1] https://sos.wyo.gov/Elections/Docs/VRStats/2020/20OctVR_stat... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Park [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupertino,_California

Have you ever actually been to Wyoming?

I've driven through it down I-80 and spent the night there a few times, but man I would never move there. The winter is incredibly harsh, and the wind was like nothing I've ever experienced. In the course of days otherwise non-eventful winter driving, I counted at least 3 trucks that had been blown off the highway. It's super remote, and some of the locals I met were not particularly friendly. I'm sure this all appeals to some folks, but man - it does not appeal to many of the folks I know. There's a reason why the population is so low.

If you're actually the kind of person who is leaving a solid blue start and cares about "tipping" the balance somewhere else, you'd be much better off going to a state that's already purple or trending that way. Ie, Texas, North Carolina, Virginia.

I have, and you're absolutely right. As an individual (and with an understanding of just how horribly gamed the system is around my vote) I'm gonna go ahead and live where the living's attractive to me. Wyoming does not make that cut. TX, NC, VA also fail the personal sniff test, but no judgments against those who choose to live there. Just not my cuppa.

Were I to have "economic incentive fund creation" money, though, I would for sure consider looking at the least populated states to throw that weight against, as your per capita change in demographic would be greater.

That said, I don't, and even if I did, there are far more effective ways to spend money if political influence is your game. Hell, if I do ever have that kinda dosh (I won't) I'll just take a saunter down K street and buy me some influence, cause that's the American Way(tm).

Fair enough. I guess my contention was that if you wanted your thought experiment to be successful, it seems wiser to:

1. Choose a state that is more appealing to people in general so they don't just leave immediately for a job elsewhere (ie, states that already have a trend of large population growth are growing because they are generally desirable. TX, NC and VA all are growing very rapidly, WY is not).

2. Don't aim for the least populated. You just need to be able to make up the difference to be able to swing it. Due to demographic trends, TX, NC, and VA are already on track to swinging eventually - but a bump of 150k voters could accelerate the timeline by a few years. Bumping the timeline for one of those states also translates into significant electoral college advantage.

3. Recognize that from a culture and infrastructure perspective, current residents of Wyoming would probably not take kindly to their population being suddenly outnumbered by coastal elites and would make this plan difficult for you. TX, NC and VA already are used to having tons of transplants from the north, so Californians would not be anything new or special.

See, this is why I like it as a thought experiment. I hadn't considered the potential for fertile territory / preexisting demographic trends to contribute to snowballing - you make a really good point there. I sorta feel like that view reflects an actual reality, too, rather than an academic musing. Fingers crossed for the future.

As for [3] - and fie on me for being a little kneejerk about this - but if the problem at hand is the amount of outsize electoral influence we all have to put up with from folks in sparsely populated places like wyoming, vermont, etc., then they'll just have to put up with the rest of us moving in and planting flags...

...in that totally hypothetical universe that will never happen...

...cause you're right, I am not moving to Wyoming.

Eastern Wyoming is harsh, windy and exactly like you say. The I-80 corridor is a wind tunnel.

Cheyenne is actually a nice town in my opinion and an hour from Denver. It might not be right for a lot of HN people but I like the town. The surrounding country is just rolling windy plains though.

North Central and Western parts of Wyoming however are gorgeous. I particularly like Thermopolis where GF's family is from. It's a tiny little town deep in a canyon on the wind and bighorn rivers. Hot springs abound. It's probably not the right place for young single techies but it's great country and great fishing. I found the people friendly enough but not overly.

Laramie is a university town. Western parts of WY is full of oil drilling gigs.

I wanted to buy a place in Medicine Bow(remember The Virginian?), but was gently dissuaded by those who knew better.

what was the dissuading factor?

Water.(I needed a well.) And wind. I was totally ill equipped to deal with WY winters as a Californian. I had lived in Boston and also in RI and parts of the south, but WY winters are definitely something different.

I hear you. I bought some ranch land in WY and then got rid of it. It’s a tough place. Rain falls sideways. Brutal..nature wise. Having said that, there is a beauty in that harshness. And the people were super nice!!

I'm not especially familiar with Michigan. But (because of some of the comments here) I am wondering if the 5 zip codes eligible for this are part of "the crescent":

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23392246

Three words "Lake Effect snow"...

That’s only really on the west side of the state. If you’re an engineer you probably want to be in SE Michigan which doesn’t really have lake effect snow.

If you work remotely you can live all over Michigan. Not just SE Michigan. It depends what you're in to. I've know teleworkers who have been in the UP, the thumb, and every place in between. Depends on what you're interested in outside of coding hours.

How's $15K worth the move for anyone?

It's not much, especially if you work at a place like gitlab that openly brags about their pay discrimination policies. They'll actually dock your pay if you move to a place like this from SF and that $15k won't come close to making up for it.

If you want to move anyway, but don't know where exactly, and Michigan is on your list.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/subjective-theory-of-va...

Spread over three years also.

Especially as they're trying to attract high earners.

Hum I live 5 minutes from the border in Indiana. I need to find a way to harness this for developer hires :)

I’ve been contemplating building a chain of bike specific rentals up the coast. We should do some synergistic development.

You get subsidized bike commuting developers and I get their overnight fees when they can’t make it home...

Would this be rental apartments that people can use for short stays while traveling along a bike path? Targeting remote workers?

I ask because something like that actually sounds kinda interesting.

I hadn’t thought to target remote workers but might in the age of widespread remote work.

Let’s do it. Great bike trail that hits my office and goes up into Michigan.

Not on your life it was 30,000. Lack of diversity cheap wages no unions lacks culture identity oh wait Michigan Militias. My masters degree will set n the stoop 4th and South st Philadelphia

TL;DR get "$15k" = get 7.5% off the purchase of a $200k house. Obviously the higher the price of the house, the smaller pct off $15k equals to.

It's also structured somewhat like a loan, where $5k is forgiven each year you live there.

Only if you live in Chicago.

Still, these incentives for remote workers seem like a good idea; I'm curious how many more there will be.

non-paywalled archive if you need it: https://archive.is/uu2SW

original source: movetomichigan.com

I clicked the "For Foodies" button on the website. I'm not very familiar with Michigan, so I was curious to see how enticing the food options would be.

The first one on the list was "Applebee's". I don't think they're targeting this effort towards people like me

Based on our trips to SW Michigan, there's a few good places, but not many. Silver Beach Pizza in St. Joseph, Wheatberry in Buchanan, Infusco Coffee Roasters in Bridgman (for coffee), and Bit of Swiss Bakery in Stevensville were the highlights for us.

Several good places just over the border in Michigan City or South Bend, though.

I'm surprised they're listing an Applebee's. At least along Lake Michigan, there aren't too many places that are mainstream chains, restaurants or stores. Can't even find a Walgreens or CVS most places.

Looks like they more just took a list of places. They have a courtyard by Marriott on the list as well.

And it’s alphabetical

Northern Michigan has exceptional dining, particularly in the Traverse City area.

Where’s the Chicago requirement? Here are “the details” from your link:

> Up to $15,000 forgivable grant with the purchase of a new home with a cost of at least $200,000

> Not current Michigan resident Must purchase a home in zip codes 49022, 49085, 49106, 49103, 49127

> Must be considered a fulltime Michigan resident (obtain Michigan driver’s license and claim Michigan home as primary residence)

> Must prove full-time employment and are working remotely for a company outside of Southwest Michigan

> Consider volunteering on a non-profit board, in local schools or participating in a civic organization in Berrien County

> $5,000 forgiven after each year of residency

Those zip codes are for Benton Harbor / St. Joseph. If you like the beach (Lake Michigan is practically a freshwater ocean), it’s not a half bad area. First time homebuyer programs like this are nice, because the down payment is a huge hurdle for people.

If you want free college for your kids (value >> $15K), then take a look at Kalamazoo: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalamazoo_Promise

>Only if you live in Chicago.

What? Why? I know state governments are stupid and lust after taxable income but adding a bunch of upper middle-class Chicagoans to the state where Yoopers and Detroit (yeah I know, the state has more than that, but if you squint it's mostly just a continuum between those to stereotypes) manage to mostly coexist peacefully seems like a great way to F that up.

It's for anyone not living in Michigan.

It's interesting because Silicon Valley is the opposite: they want business but not residents. I guess Michigan has a glut of housing stock (the ad mentions $200K houses)

"I guess Michigan has a glut of housing stock (the ad mentions $200K houses)"

No... that's just... what houses cost if you don't live somewhere insane, and live a bit outside of a decent city. They don't actually cost $800,000 for a barely-livable shack....

http://www.movetomichigan.org

Also, please ignore the fact that local militias occupied the state legislature, and some were recently arrested by the FBI for a plot to kidnap the governor and overthrow the state government. Come to Michigan!;)

Personal disclaimer: I grew up in Michigan from birth to mid teen years (in the Pacific NW now). I still have family that I love back there, but I'd need a salary offer in the top 3% income bracket of the state to consider moving back (and I'd still only rent). Michiganders are just too uptight for my sensibilities as an adult.

I grew up in Kalamazoo. Moved back last October due to the arrival a new child and desire to be close to family/cheap housing.

Sold the house 10 months later and I’m already back in Seattle. Whatever idealized version of Michigan I had in my brain was not there when I got there. Couldn’t stand the culture, weather, or evangelicalism.

It is cheap though. Not so much if you want to live anywhere remotely desireable however. Homes in our neighborhood were going for over 400k. At that price I’m going to live where I want to live instead.

Not sure what you're looking to buy, but $400k would get you a mansion around Kalamazoo and a 1-bedroom in Seattle.

A friend lived in Portage (bottom half of K'zoo county) and had a beautiful home for $200k, great neighborhood, excellent schools.

I’d rather live in Seattle than live in a cheap mansion in Kalamazoo. I’d rather my family live here as well. That’s the entire point of my post.

There is a reason it is cheap and it is not a price I am willing to pay.

That’s fine but what neighborhood in Kalamazoo is $400k?

And if $400k is too much for a house, how do you make Seattle work?

Simply plug the numbers into Redfin or Zillow. This data is easily accessible.

> And if $400k is too much for a house, how do you make Seattle work?

If I’m going to have to spend this much to make Kalamazoo work I’m going to be seriously second guessing why I moved there in the first place. If I lose my remote job at the startup I worked at and suddenly am looking at making 60k a year as a windows Sysadmin at western Michigan university or Pfizer (if I’m lucky!) that house isn’t going to seem very cheap- even if my house is only 200k a year. In fact it’s going to start to seem really fucking expensive once you consider the tax implications.

And yes there are cheaper neighborhoods to live in Kalamazoo. They don’t really inspire you much to want to stay there- that is unless you like guns and meth.

I can afford more than 400k in Kalamazoo but that’s not the point. The point is that if I’m going to chose to spend every waking hour living somewhere; I’m going to choose a place that doesnt make me miserable.

Gotcha. So basically housing prices were irrelevant, you just don’t like Kalamazoo.

Which is fine. I was just trying to decipher your comments about housing.

Sure; I don’t like things that suck and cost too much. Nice work.

You said you are in Seattle? And you also said that a house over 400k was expensive?

400k is too expensive for Michigan, yeah. I’ll gladly spend more for somewhere nicer.

Ann Arbor isn't too bad

Ann Arbor is a pleasant bubble, that is burst as soon as you cross I94

Can you elaborate on how Michiganders are uptight? I grew up there and I usually think of people here as genuinely friendly (excluding people mentioned in your first paragraph). It seems like a fairly balanced mix of cultures here overall (relative to the US on average).

Now the DC area...that is an uptight place.

Quick to anger is the 1st thing that comes to mind. "The Detroit 10" - (e.g. if you're not doing 10 over the speed limit some are happy to run you off the road). Lot's of focus on your family history defining your destiny (e.g. "oh. He's a so-and-so they've always had money and power..."). More conservative than the PNW the last time I was there (admittedly, 10 years ago). This was my wife's take as well (she's a native to the PNW).

None of that sounds unique to Michigan.

Why is DC uptight? I'm moving in 1.5 weeks and would love any context I can get

It varies and you can navigate around it by finding your niche (in small groups or one-on-one, people are more pleasant). But the ambient feeling of uptightness comes from a few things:

- Guarded, anxious personalities. It’s very rare to have random conversations with people, especially without them acting uncomfortable like you have an ulterior motive. Maybe this is part of city living, but on the west coast I regularly talked to people (something as simple as: in Portland, making small talk about the weather with another guy my age was somewhat jarring for me).

- People drive (and even walk) like they are the only person in the world that matters and that their head will explode if you delay them for 2 seconds. Be ready to have people aggressively tailgate you, prevent you from merging for no reason, etc. every single time you go anywhere.

- Intellectual snootiness / inflated egos / overindexing on status. I think living in the center of the political universe goes to peoples’ heads. The reality is that almost everyone is a cog that is trying in vain (almost always with good intentions) to improve the world.

- Conservative work/life norms. Like, people caring way too much about dress/appearances/etc. People behave like they’re being watched because, well, they probably are (so they don’t want to step out of line). Sometimes it feels like a pissing contest to see who can give off appearances of working harder (midnight emails, etc.)

- Insane heat and humidity in the summer understandably makes people agitated.

All that said, there are a huge number of things that are great about living there. And my views are tinted by the lens of social anxiety and the burnout I experienced there. Someone less sensitive than me may feel much differently.

I hope you enjoy your new city!

That's funny. As a native of the south (Charlotte) who lived in Seattle for a while, I would have used your first point to describe west coast people. Almost nobody in Seattle would make conversation with strangers. When I went back to Charlotte after a few years in Seattle, I was sort of blown away by the fact that I had an entire 5 minute conversation with a homeless person on the bench next to me while I was waiting for an uber - and not once did he ask for money. It was just him asking if I needed directions and then we talked about the weather and the city. (I'm not saying that's the norm, but that does not happen ever Seattle). I used to hate random small talk when I was growing up, but I now understand that it's a sign of an overtly friendly culture, which is not a bad thing in my book.

I haven't spent much time in DC myself but, I had wondered about it. Your description definitely doesn't make it sound like a good time for me either. I've glad you got out and are (hopefully) happier elsewhere!

Thanks so much for taking the time to write all this out - I really appreciate it

About that plot. Don't take it too seriously. The FBI has a reputation for making hay, with fictional plots they create, and cast out nets to fish gullible people into. Budgets need justifying! And catching real terrorists is hard. Much harder than entrapping some internet idiots in a chat room.

Don't take my word for it. Here's a civil rights lawyer talking about how weak that case is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POB5i3Ll9bg

> About that plot. Don't take it too seriously

Considering that they stockpiled semiautomatic weapons in preparation for the plot, seems like it should be taken very seriously, even if their rationale (punishing the governor for closing gyms) was silly.

> stockpiled semiautomatic weapons

I have a "stockpile" of "semiautomatic weapons" in a safe not 5 meters from where I sit right now. Three rifles, a shotgun, and half a dozen pistols in various calibers, plus several thousand rounds of ammo. In the US "stockpiling" doesn't count for anything.

> I have a "stockpile" of "semiautomatic weapons" in a safe not 5 meters from where I sit right now.

You're not plotting to kidnap an elected official with them. Pretty big difference.

The FBI agent was "plotting". Others were just along for the ride it sounds like. This will fall apart and embarrass the FBI.

Has a huge Dr. Pol fan, count me in.

Do they have high-speed internet there?

you gotta be subscribed to read this article...

Come on, Texas. Roll out the gibs. I was going to move anyway, the least you can do is cover my moving expenses. It's either that or FL, and on paper I like TX more.

John Carmack got some notes on this :P

original non-paywalled link https://movetomichigan.org/

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I really hope you've checked your water for lead if you live anywhere in the US or Canada, by that standard.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-lead...

https://apnews.com/article/24628f49af1e45219ee4b06c0a9a1229

It's a completely separate water supply from the rest of the state, which generally does very well given the copious amounts of freshwater available. This would be like checking for poisoned water anywhere in Quebec or California because of the water safety issues in parts of Montreal or Fresno that were worse than Flint in some ways.

That's a brutal commute. 1h30min 1 way.

Also, whatever you save in housing you lose in adjusted income. Chicago salaries trend higher.

Only if your company adjusts your income. Mine wouldn’t if I chose to move.

This is stupid pay people who are well off enough to move here and buy a house... why not use that money to support not so well off citizens to move up help them grow and contribute to their own economy. This just seems like BS to get rich people to come and push poor people out. Fuck economic developers.

Because rich people pay lots of local and property taxes I guess

Illinois' Demographic Collapse: Get Out As Soon As You Can

https://www.thestreet.com/mishtalk/economics/illinois-demogr...

Illinois News Network reports "A Southern Illinois University at Carbondale poll from 2015 showed that half of the Illinois residents polled would leave the state if they could. The No. 1 reason: Taxes."

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