The Most Surveilled Cities in the World
statista.com
statista.com
The same goes for China even. Public camera surveillance I think mostly does what it's supposed to do with very little intrusion into people's daily lives, in contrast to old school police stops and frisks. Travelling I've had more bad run ins with corrupt cops in Bulgaria than I had in Beijing.
Imagine you appear on 50 different CCTV cameras on an average day. Now imagine two different scenarios:
Scenario A: Each one of these cameras is operated by a local business or property management company. The cameras record video that gets overwritten within a few days if there are no incidents or requests from law enforcement.
Scenario B: All of these cameras are on a network operated by a company with contracts for the city, law enforcement, and digital advertising networks. Facial recognition technology tracks you across all 50 locations, with an "anonymized" identifier attached to your biometrics. This identifier can be cross-referenced with other "anonymized" identifiers to build an advertising profile, while another contractor's machine learning system builds a threat profile based on movements of these identifiers, flagging outliers for human review.
Both scenarios have the same number of cameras, but I don't think many would consider the two comparable.
And their records can be accessed without oversight.
The sharing with LEO will always then be optionally and at your option, which still provides a similar net security benefit.
Purely localized home storage and IOT stuff which offers similar features like remote access and whatnot, is clearly a really, really difficult problem to solve. Just like smartphone being essentially your entire one ISP coordinated popping from having your whole life in any security agencies hands.
Maybe we need an organization like OpenAI to solve this problem. Like OpenHome or something. A place we can centralize our developer resources to providing a solution to this obvious proto-police state that is being developed out of pure utility, aka usefulness.
Right now my friends moms washing machine and coffee maker are all wifi connected to be controlled and notified when done remotely from here phone. It's entering out lives fast and we need a solution and startups offering similarlly good products - or a private solution which can be sold to the manufacturers like Whirlpool.
I think the better solution is that someone offers a relatively cheap service that has a cloud option that fully encrypts the data and uses e2ee for communication to the server. Though it is hard to prove that you don't own the keys (I mean how many still distrust Signal?).
"In most cases, when police want to search your neighborhood, they need a warrant and a reason to believe something’s amiss. Now “reasonable suspicion” is going the way of dial-up. Fifty police departments across the United States are partnering with Amazon to collect footage from people who use Ring, the company’s internet-connected doorbell. Some are offering discounted or free Ring doorbells in exchange for a pledge to register the devices with law enforcement and submit all requested footage."
You still would be paying Ring for storage here. There is also the platform effects that once you own one, you'll buy more.
While the ethics of the Ring, neighborhood & police relationship are debatable, my thought was much less ethical & more related to reselling data for advertising purposes to cover the costs of the whole system. Such an idea seems more geared towards large city foot traffic areas with lots of eye catching items to provide data with. Shopping centers, sports stadiums, etc., would be ideal.
I suspect most saw it as a way to help their neighbor and since I was specific, it was easy for them to check quickly and share the video if they found what I described.
But I'm really not comfortable with corporate entities mining their consumer devices for data to voluntarily give to the police. Incentivizing customers to give blanket permission to share all this data is unconscionable. It's especially telling that the normal path would require the police to get a judge to sign off on a warrant to get at this data.
It's funny... in another post thread people are talking about a petition to have Microsoft withdraw their membership from the RIAA (in the wake of the youtube-dl takedown fiasco). Why aren't people banding together to demand that Amazon terminate their Ring camera relationship with police?
https://enterprise.verizon.com/products/internet-of-things/s...
Our smart parking solution is a complete solution to track and monitor parking spot occupancy using smart video cameras and computer vision analytics to enable optimization. A dashboard gives you a clear view of parking in your community while parking policy tools help you track trends and modify policies to fit your community.
https://novayagazeta.ru/news/2020/09/17/164324-roskomsvoboda...
It's one of the only times in my life I've elected NOT to open source my work. As trivial as it was to build, I don't want to contribute anything at all to that creepy mess.
That was three years ago. My key takeaway: just assume scenario B is happening already.
I lived there for 7 years and I don't share the same feelings. Sure it's not like you live in 1984 but it feels much more like a "police state" in comparison to the rest European capitals.
Examples:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uk-man-jailed-over-facebook-sta...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/arrests-offensive-face...
https://thesuffolkjournal.com/26253/opinion/detainment-of-br...
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/count-dankula-freedom-s...
>What heinous action warranted such drastic measures? The crime of “misgendering,” or calling a transgender individual by their biologically determined set of pronouns instead of their preferred pronouns, precipitated Scottow’s arrest. Stephanie Hayden, a biological male who recently transitioned to identifying as female on social media, reported Scottow to the police.
If you would have tried to tell people 10 years ago that this actually happened, people would have thought you were crazy, or accuse you of promoting the slippery slope fallacy.
Different spin, for sure, but the facts appear to be the same. I'd have posted multiple sources if I knew this would be contended. Here's another article on it: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-stand-with-kate-scotto...
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uk-man-jailed-over-facebook-sta...
So a guy posted "grossly offensive" or "of an indecent, obscene or menacing character", and infuriated everyone around him to the point that he had to be arrested "for his own safety,"
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/arrests-offensive-face...
Legislation passed to prosecute racist hate speech.
> https://thesuffolkjournal.com/26253/opinion/detainment-of-br...
A woman was arrested due to her “willfully and maliciously engages in a knowing pattern of conduct or series of acts over a period of time directed at a specific person".
> https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/count-dankula-freedom-s...
An opinion piece that just shows someone's opinion.
You should pick your examples more carefully because all you did was try to pass off people actively engaged in systematic abuse and harassment and persecution of vulnerable people as victims.
And clearly not a great deterrent, as I've been the victim of more crimes in London than anywhere else.
It’s a time-consuming and costly process to collect, review and pursue CCTV evidence.
If you’re the victim of a relatively minor property crime (e.g. having your phone or laptop stolen) it’s probably not worth the police pursuing it.
If, on the other hand, you are the victim of serious violent crime (murder, attempted murder, rape, assault, etc.), the police most certainly do trawl the area for cameras, request footage, review and identify suspects, issue appeals, etc.
In recent years, the police in London had a policy to harass anyone who was seen using a camera in a large, but completely unpublished, geofenced region of the city. That's not US/China/Saudi-level police state bad--as in, the UK police aren't able to arbitrarily confiscate cash or shoot people with impunity for having the wrong skin color--but it's bad enough that I consider such behavior a feature of a police state.
Any jurisdiction where it's not possible to perform the normal functions of everyday life, including creating works of art through photography, without fear of hostile police interaction is to some degree or other a police state.
Would I be wrong to assume you say that from a position of middle class white privilege? (A position I also hold, but from which I have significant empathy with those who do not.)
I'm guessing intimidating police by reminding them of the laws they're supposed to uphold works a lot less well for young black kids.
Undoubtedly, but there is a power in knowing what and how to say something. I've been arrested and had to sit with three other unrelated individuals for a while, as we waited to be processed. We were all white but I really felt the treatment I received was significantly better than my two fellow arrestees and that was entirely down to not sounding...well, like an idiot. Even asking to read the Police "Codes of Practice" - which is offered automatically - was met with unease (and slight embarrassment) because it's apparently rare for people to say yes to that and they didn't have it to hand immediately.
You can call this a class benefit but I certainly wasn't dressed in a middle class manner (which is possibly why I was stopped initially) and my accent is fairly typical for South East London.
It's kinda well known amongst my riding peers that some people "fail the attitude test" and end up way worse off than people who're at least polite and businesslike when pulled over. I've rarely "talked my way out of a ticket", but I've watched people talk themselves into 3 or 4 serious tickets where they could have "settled" for just the one relatively minor they deserved.
(I _did_ managed to escape without a ticket in San Francisco once, doing 100mph past a cop car on the Bay Bridge on a borrowed noisy piped Honda VTR1000 with a girl on the back wearing a blindingly white pure muppet fur jacket and a big fluffy glow-in-the-dark tule tutu. The cop car didn't trigger my normally well honed "cop radar" because in my head it was just a "movie cop car", not a real Australian Ford/Holden mortal enemy carrying sedan with our local highway patrol markings, so I just kinda obliviously cruised past him in fairly light 2am traffic into town. He light up his disco lights so I pulled over at the nearest exit, pulled my helmet off to reveal a grey-beard most likely older than his dad, and said in my broadest and fairly exaggerated Aussie accent "G'Day mate!" and told him "I was only doing about 100!" to which he said "Miles, you're not driving in kilometres now", and let me go with a warning to "ride safe, OK?" Pretty sure that was part middle aged white privilege combined with "way too much paperwork booking an Australian", with a little but of "Australians? We _love_ you guys!" cultural luck thrown in for good measure... But I'll take that rare win against them :-) )
To me, the rules are "advisory" and attempt to accomplish the actual social contract goal of "keeping other road users safe". The intended goal is safety - the rules codify more or less effective practices to achieve that goal. The rules are inevitably fairly blunt instruments setting limitations based on generalisations or lowest common denominator assumptions. A semi trailer doing 50 has a much greater risk of endangering other road users than a motorcycle doing 100. The bike has shorter stopping distances, better manoeuvrability, can evade other vehicles through much smaller gaps - and most importantly a motorcycle rider has a significantly higher motivation to "not get it wrong" due to the enormously higher risk of self injury in any accident. Car/truck driver mostly need to deal with insurance companies. I need to deal with being turned into road jam.
Assuming I was being "reckless" or "putting other lives in danger" because I was doing 100 in fairly light 2am Bay Bridge traffic (which was all doing 80 or so anyway) screams of mindlessly adhering to rules without any concern for the goals of the rules and the desired outcomes.
I'm most likely overestimating my own skill and safety, because everybody does - even people who understand that everybody does, but I've got about a million km of motorcycle riding over 30 years during which I've injured _zero_ other people to back up my side of this argument.
I also totally accept the fact that my disregard to being a stickler to the rules means one day I may "get the book thrown at me". I'd also point out that the cop in the incident recounted above should (and would) have done so if he considered me to be "riding recklessly and putting other lives in danger", and he chose not to. Apart from the Treasure Island entrances/exits, the Bay Bridge has no intersections or driveways where unexpected vehicles might enter, has great sightlines to see slow or stationary traffic from long long distances, and often has traffic flowing at 70 or 80. There are definitely times/places on that bridge where doing 100 is clearly not "reckless" - although I totally understand some people's subjective opinion of reckless is no doubt different to mine, and the minisucle increase in risk to there road users of a motorcycle moving through light traffic at 20mph faster than everyone else on that stretch of road could for some people cross over into recklessness.
(I also admit I have a somewhat risk-happy personality, and view a lot of things differently to my more risk averse friends. I would be astounded to discover my personality trait there was not shared by a majority of HN readers. You don't dream of starting or working for "swing for the fences" disruptive startups if you're a rules stickler. Maybe my "enjoy riding fast on the road while accounting for others safety" has crossed over into the Uber-style-evil rules flaunting. I don't think so, but I bet Kalanick doesn't think that either, and he's wrong - so maybe I am too...)
I like to think you'd rarely even notice me on the road though, I'm rarely flamboyant or behaving unexpectedly in traffic (even though pre-covid I commuted every day by bike), and my rule-breaking (these days at least, I will admit for being stupider when younger) is mostly reserved for non main highway out of town backroads, or late night/early morning mostly empty roads.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/dec/15/yates-police-terr...
I will say this though: having lived in both Beijing and London, I've always felt ultra safe (and I lived in London during some terrorist attacks). On the other hand, I lived in SF for the same time and I never felt safe there, avoiding walks at night, avoiding public transport for the most part, avoiding some streets, etc. I also lived in Chicago and I felt much worse there (at least in SF I could still take walks).
Also having lived in London for 7 years, I can't say I felt safe walking at night other than in the very central places. Try visiting Elephant and Castle or Seven Sisters alone during the night.
Edit: spelling
Did you ever park outside a parking garage?
Did that many times, it was fine? Only place I've ever felt unsafe was Brentford after I got hassled there.
That's fined pretty swiftly.
Would Chi or SF become a London or Beijing with CCTV?
Doubtful to both. But a lot can be explained by social determinants of wealth and what that turns people into.
Depends where you are and what times.
3am on the redline in the northside.. Be ready to move at a moments notice.
After that some homeless people screamed at me, some tried to punch me slowly (easy to avoid), I got used to it with time but it's still not a nice feeling to take walks. I wouldn't let my SO walk alone at 3AM through the streets for example (while I would have no problems with that in London or Beijing).
Murder rate in San Francisco: 5.17 per 100,000.
Spend some time in a real autocracy, then see if you feel the same way.
I think your experience is related to class. When I read your comment I think - ok they must be a Petty Bourgeoisie or Bourgeoisie.
CCTV is used to catch and punish so called 'criminals'. But when many public spaces and parks in London have been sold off/privatized[1], and the Commons has been plundered everywhere (IP, knowledge, etc.)[2], the laws punishing 'theft' are pretty laughable to me. In my research lately, I've been coming to the conclusion that maybe the ones who are making the laws are the real criminals.
There are systemic thefts taking place: the slow privatization of public lands, the pay-to-play dynamics of modern day law, and the plunder of the educational and knowledge Commons through Intellectual Monopoly - making human curiousity illegal.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jul/05/revealed-how-...
[2] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/plunder-commons-...
This chart continues to be unsourced, garbage data. Look at the source for it - it is this spreadsheet. [2][3]
The primary source for all of China's figures in that spreadsheet is this [3][4] puff piece.
Now, the astute reader will notice something strange with this data. Somehow, the primary source [3][4] for the spreadsheet claims that camera/capita in China is similar to the rest of the world - yet, for some reason, the spreadsheet - and the subsequent article claims that all the major Chinese cities have an order of magnitude more cameras than the rest of the world.
Garbage in, garbage out. The methodology for gathering the per-city statistics was wildly inconsistent (There is incredibly obvious undercounting[3] happening for nearly every datapoint that's not in China), and the end product is completely worthless - unless you are, of course, using it to reinforce pre-existing biases.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20737023
[2] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I-WpH2KOiguKy9JTQ9zC...
[3] You can tell this spreadsheet is utter garbage, by looking at the entry for NYC in it. It claims that NYC has 31,490 cameras in it. I've visited NYC twice, and I've probably walked past more cameras than that in the ten days I was there.
[4] https://www.360kuai.com/pc/9d0f97d8eb6ea1d8f?cota=3&kuai_so=...
Surveillance surely plays a role in all this, the question is how much. How much is surveillance vs. the upbringing of an individual.
Out of the 150 cities, 39 or 26% of them are in China making the candidate pool quite imbalanced to start with?
Going by the same data, we could also claim that:
"The Safest Cities in the World"
Qingdao China 7.42
Wuxi China 7.84
Hefei China 11.03
Nagoya Japan 11.21
Nanjing China 13.31
Ningbo China 14.75
Ji'nan China 15.79
Suzhou China 16.63
Dalian China 17.53
Fukuoka Japan 18.59
Xiamen China 19.09
Seems like an okay city to line with cameras judging by the wiki page : "Darwin has had a history of alcohol abuse and violent crime, with 6,000 assaults in 2009, of which 350 resulted in broken jaws and noses—more than anywhere else in the world, according to the Royal Darwin Hospital."
Cameras that wouldn't let a gate up unless they got your picture going into public places like malls or airports, cameras every few miles or so on highways, A few cameras for each road at an intersection, to name the interesting ones.
They seem like VERY vey rough estimates. China probaly has the most surveilled city in the world. But effectiveness of camera's is a much more important factor. I've heard of many places in china where you are forced trough gates with photocamera's or active surveillance. China is more than likely to have the most fake camera's in the world as well.
https://www.comparitech.com/vpn-privacy/the-worlds-most-surv...
Do Ring doorbells count in the survey, or is this just for the cameras that are monitored directly from the state police bunkers?
https://www.comparitech.com/vpn-privacy/the-worlds-most-surv...
I only hope for India to also become a major powerhouse to curb China, and for Korea and Japan to regain their footing.
A couple hundred dollars can reduce a lot of headache, and I don't see that incentive going away anytime. I assume every car will have a dash cam, a house will have a doorbell cam or similar, and every business is monitored everywhere. And cities/states will have license plate readers on police cars/roads.
All of a sudden I'm _way_ more predisposed to wearing a mask in public 100% of the time. And a hat. and sunglasses - even at night... :sigh:
We get what we deserve. At least two generations have stood by and allowed the West and its influence on the world stage to be degraded and eroded without so much as batting an eyelid.
When one steps back and looks at what they've facilitated, one starts to see some reality in the "strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create bad times, bad times create strong men" cycle often touted.
This is the source for their chart. [1] It claims that NYC has a mere 31,490 cameras. As anyone who's ever been in NYC will tell you, that is complete and utter nonsense.
[1] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I-WpH2KOiguKy9JTQ9zC...
Suburbanization also makes satellite surveillance easier and "acustic" face to face interaction much more difficult.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/864736/knife-crime-in-lo...
Other random comparisons:
2019 murders in London (population ~9 million): 149
2019 murders in Houston (population ~7 million): 140
2019 murders in Chicago (population ~2.5 million): 490
It seems difficult to assess the impact of surveillance cameras on crime. There are many factors that would impact it. It may be more instructive to look at the 'solved crime' rate. Does the % of convictions positively correlate with the number of cameras?
Surveillance and facial recognition could help our police force effectively put this limited staff to use, so that criminals face consequences and crime is deterred. I have no problem using technology to enforce existing law effectively, just as I have no problem with cops using cell phones or vehicles to do their job. I do find the dystopian extent of how these technologies are used in China (e.g. social scores) to be unacceptable, but we can institute the right regulations around these technologies to prevent broader abuse while still retaining the benefits (a cheaper and more effective police force).
Now: you are T-boned by a car running a red light. The driver is the son of a police captain. You want to press charges, but suddenly, you are being indicted for dozens of crimes. It took all of minutes for the police to pull out every single time you were in public for the past 7 years and, thanks to the wonders of AI, not much longer to narrow down to the forty or fifty occasions during which they have you on record as committing a crime.
Are you still sure you want to press charges against the captain's son? Or should bygones be bygones? Because it will be hard to press charges and fight dozens of charges in court, one at a time. In fact you will be in and out of court for years to come. Or not. Who knows?
But that's sort of my point as well. I think we can come up with the regulations to avoid the situation you describe. It may involve what I suggested above, updates to statutes of limitation, etc.