L.A.'s coast was once a DDT dumping ground, but no one could see it until now
latimes.com
latimes.com
It'd not be unreasonable to hunt down those responsible, and make them pay for cleaning it up. Sure, they're probably dead by now, but they probably left a lot of money.
I don't think it's even relevant that "it was not illegal at the time", they knew the stuff was toxic, and they chose to release it into the oceans, just because no one had explicitly made a law banning them from doing so.. Common sense should be the first law.
This is problematic from a variety of practical angles, though, not just mathematical ones. It seems like something the forensic accounting lobby would salivate over.
Should I be forced to defend a lawsuit because my great^6 grandfather owned slaves? (As far as I know, none did.) That’s more abhorrent than legally dumping chemicals that today’s common sense says should have been done differently.
My father had his own earning, creating, and saving abilities.
The only think which could in anyway get close to legality would be to:
- Legally hold a case against whoever did it and win it. (Can even legally have a case against a dead person?) This requires thinks to have been illegal when done.
- Requiring that (likely dead) person to pay a fine based on existing law.
- Arguing that whoever accepted an inheritance did inherit the fine, too.
But as far as I know every point of this list has many legally questionable aspects.
But what you MUST NOT do under any circumstances in a state of law is to not base judgement on law but arbitrary "I feel like this should be done" arguments. This is also why it's of upmost importance to fast adapt laws make them general instead of specific and not put any loop holes in them. Because then you can judge people to some degree even if they do something bad even if that specific think wasn't explicitly forbidden. (E.g. based on a generic law which makes any form of causing environmental damage in a context where it's reasonable to assume it the person should have been aware illegal. Sure you need some threshold, too. Else driving your care is illegal.)
I don't see how you could have a criminal trail against a dead person in the US, without violating the sixth amendment. It would be impossible to inform the deceased of the charges, etc.
Just to be absolutely clear -- it's not reasonable, and what you're suggesting is literally how North Korea handles crime.
"Oh but you know here it's different" -- you're setting a precedent which, if allowed, would mean your family members could face jail time for crimes YOU commit.
Every law, no matter how small and well-meaning, has implicit threat of prison behind it. You can't be so naïve as to believe that this enforcement action won't result in prison for some, destroyed lives for others, and because laws and enforcement are man-made, there's also a guarantee that your dragnet will punish some innocents, and let some guilty go (maybe because they can afford great lawyers and/or bribes). And of course, because this would be a very controversial measure, it would be highly politicized.
If someone doesn't comply with the court, but that would be a crime committed by the child, not the parent.
There are plenty of laws which don't have an implicit threat of prison behind it.
Here's one: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/1 . Quoting Wikipedia: "This is a U.S. federal law, but only suggests voluntary customs for handling of the American flag and was never intended to be enforceable. The code uses non-binding language like "should" and "custom" throughout and does not prescribe any penalties for failure to follow the guidelines." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code
There are laws naming post offices and other objects. There are law recognizing people and bestowing honors on them. There are laws which cancel previous laws.
There are plenty of laws which have no threat of punishment.
But I'll set that objection aside.
Let's go back to CJefferson's comment, to be more concrete. "inheritance should not be a right, when the original money was acquired illegally."
Money (at least as CJefferson refers to) exists because of laws, and the way we think of money exists because of laws. Inheritance is a legal concept, enforced by laws. So the right to inherit millions of dollars by your definition exists because of the implicit threat of prison.
Thus, changing the law as CJefferson describes doesn't necessarily add a new threat of violence - it could change the balance of the existing threat of violence, or even reduce it.
Thus, an argument against changing the law simply because laws carry a threat of punishment is really an argument to maintain the status quo for the existing threats of violence. It is not a strong argument against changing the law, which is what I think you meant it as.
Moreover, where do you draw the line? Should all the decedents of german families who got their wealth off the back of slave labor by jews also be forced to forfeit their wealth? What about the decedents of families of plantation owners? How do you go about handling that with the institutions provided? What would they be charged with?
You're being very emotional about what seems like a pretty clear case of recovering ill-gotten gains.
If somebody sells me a television they burgled from your house, I'd consider the transaction settled once the exchange was made and we'd parted ways. You would probably disagree.
Unknowingly buying stolen property still comes with a risk that if LE ever find it, they can take it away from you without compensating you.
I had my TV stolen and sold to a pawn shop. Detectives found it at local pawn shop and they recovered it for me. These laws exist so that when one is engaged in business, they have to do reasonable due diligence that they are not dealing with stolen or illegal goods.
FYI this does happen for companies. It's not that wild. Businesses like Lloyds of London and Greene King are paying slavery reparations today despite the fact that no one in the company had anything directly to do with that part of the business. I guess if you had stock that had been passed down through generations you would indirectly lose out on some money if the share price fell as a result.
I'm not a libertarian myself, but I miss the libertarianism of Silicon Valley and HN. They are still around, but there's a lot more progressives around and there is a very real authoritarian and violent strain that runs through that movement.
Actual facts show that at this moment in time in the U.S. it's white supremacists and related extreme-right ideologies which are producing most domestic terrorism (i.e. actual violence).
https://www.csis.org/analysis/war-comes-home-evolution-domes...
In addition to the link I shared, both the Department of Homeland Security and the FBI have recently reported white-supremacist aligned groups as the major source of violent attacks (aka domestic terrorism) within the U.S. in recent years.
https://raskin.house.gov/media/press-releases/subcommittee-c...
https://www.fbi.gov/news/testimony/confronting-white-suprema...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/us/politics/homeland-secu...
https://www.foxnews.com/us/homeland-white-supremacy-lethal-t...
Are people disputing these facts? Or are merely displeased?
Factual information is nonpartisan.
And yes, punishing a family member for a crime perpetrated by another is, by definition, collective punishment.
Having a period after death for the government to bring charges against the estate seems reasonable. We already have this, but I could see a reasonable person arguing to make it a longer period.
I think it's unreasonable for the same reason getting rid of all statutes of limitations would be unreasonable. At some point, you have to let people stop looking over their shoulder. Society doesn't work very well when you incentivize people to dig up century old dirt on their enemies.
What kind of bizarre sadism is that?
The people who lived out their days without going broke lose because their property rights are being violated. Their property and their dollars that they have already paid taxes on should be theirs to give away as they see fit.
Children aren't even entitled to their parents money in adulthood. Parents have to choose to give it to them either explicitly or by omission.
If you are against children being punished because of the economics of their parents, then surely you are in support for a strong social safety network for children (universal subsidized/free childcare, including meals, and healthcare), yes?
Which requires taxation or other funding sources.
Which means we must ponder things like: how much of Sam Walton's $100 million inheritance did his children need in order to not be punished by a higher inheritance tax? $5 million each?
The people who will be screwed are the middle class people who's only (if any) windfall in life is inheriting part of their parents house and using that to pay off their own mortgage or send their kids to college or whatever (and who's kids will likely inherit a share of the house and continue the cycle).
Because we can certainly reduce the number of complex workarounds - which were deliberately introduced to allow the rich to have those workarounds. We can increase the taxation rate for the highest tax bracket, like the 90% it once was. And we can increase the estate tax.
The current federal estate tax has an exemption of $5 million. Just how many middle class families do you think would be unable to send their kids to college if the estate tax rate after the first $5 million was increased? For that matter, how many middle class families would be unable to send their kids to college of the exemption were lowered to $2 million? Because $2 million seems like a lot to me.
Poorer people will receive no windfall in life. Since you want people to have windfall ... how do you want to support poor people? How should the children of the poor go to college or whatever?
Because otherwise what you write sounds like a standard wedge argument - get the middle class to fear for losing what little they have, in order so the rich benefit even more, while the poor get left out.
Higher pay via stronger union rights (repeal Taft-Hartley now!), universal college education. These help give your desired economic windfall for the middle class and my desired windfall for the less well off.
The rich and the children of the rich will still be rich.
It punishes those who would have had the assets otherwise. Especially when the stated reason is to punish them.
For the record, I don’t think the state taking away most (or all) of a person's estate after they’ve died is a punishment at all.
It's only punishment if you think there is a natural right to control the disposition of property after death. Otherwise, it's just a argument as to why a purely optional benefit not grounded in rights should not be extended by the state.
Not extending a benefit to which there is no entitlement is not inherently a punishment.
Countries that seize this much property don’t do too well economically.
If the children of the mom and pop shop die, and the children are preschool aged, with no other inheritors or people designated to handle the estate, then what?
Effectively no one says that "every generation must completely pull themselves up from zero".
Do you seriously think the children of working/labor class families, living in rental housing, and with no capital, completely pull themselves up from zero?
Since they don't, neither do the children you hypothesis. So what's the point of your argument other than to tug at our heartstrings about those orphans?
Oh, and if the mom and pop shop is bankrupt, or has little capital, and there isn't family or close friends able and willing to take care of the kids, then who will?
Oh, right, "some state system." So if you are so concerned about these children, perhaps we need better orphanages and better support for the foster system.
Now, how do we fund those improvements?
Firstly anyone with a brain is gonna conveniently go broke before they die if you try and pull something like that.
Second I'm struggling to find words for just how fundamentally wrong, unethical and dystopian the assumptions that underlie your comment are. I and a hell of a lot of people don't want to live in a society where assuming malice is the default like that.
Oops, too late.
Just the wealthy. Estate taxes have (in the USA) applied only to large estates.
> on the premise that they probably wronged society
Some wealth is inherited now, but large gains (extracted from the market) are generally the result of exploitation.
> anyone with a brain is gonna conveniently go broke before they die
That's already happening, they call it The Giving Project.
I do not understand this sentiment one bit. To think that we should implement equality by pulling people down to the mean is, frankly, insane. That does nothing to help anyone - its a stance based solely on anger and jealousy. Your policy would literally decrease the average quality of life.
Would you be happy if everyone was destitute? At what point do you realize that actual quality of life matters more than perfect equality?
We achieve equality by bringing people up, not tearing them down. If you think we need more tax money to accomplish that goal, I would argue that we have much more of a budgeting problem than a tax income problem, but I understand the sentiment. But to think that the appropriate tax vehicle is to explicitly destroy lives is not an American ideal.
That is wrong by a factor of ~100. 0.2% of estates in 2017 paid an estate tax. [0]
[0] - https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/ten-facts-you-shou...
https://ballotpedia.org/Net_worth_of_United_States_Senators_...
(That was for 2011; it's a reasonably safe bet that as a group they're no poorer now.)
It was political will that created the loopholes in the first place. Getting rid of them unfortunately requires more political will than creating them did. This probably has something to do with loss-aversion.
"It can be tough to prosecute some crimes, so let's just punish everyone without due process!"
The kids of Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are getting a miniscule amount of their fathers' wealth - how is that possible if supposedly they have a right to it?
So you have it all backwards. The descendent are not entitled to the wealth of their parents or ancestors. The right to property (including disbursement through inheritance) is given to those that own it! The dollar I earn, I can do as a please with and has already been taxed.
> German succession law orders that all lifetime gifts made by the testator within a period of ten years prior to their death is added to the value of the estate. Such gifts are thus also basis for calculation of the forced share.
and a provision like that seems like a clear necessity to prevent people from working around the compulsory-share legislation by just giving their money away before dying. And yes, my understanding (which could be totally wrong!) is that this means that there's effectively a clawback provision on gifts in Germany.
So it's neither "fraction of the estate" nor "fraction of total wealth generated" but a compromise "fraction of what the estate would have been if not for certain actions on the part of the parents".
According to https://works.bepress.com/aaron_schwabach/3/download/ there are in fact such clawback provisions in various European countries (as of 2011, but I don't think that much has changed since then) with different details: time periods, whether you can claw back non-fungible goods from someone who purchased them in good faith from the gift recipient, whether children can officially sign away their rights to gifts at the time of the gift so they later cannot invoke the clawback provisions, etc, etc.
Yes, from a US-or-UK common-law point of view this all seems fairly counter-intuitive. ;)
Define "miniscule".
> how is that possible if supposedly they have a right to it?
Tax evasion 101
Just chiming in for the 'has already been taxed' thing, as it is often brought up in opposition to taxing inheritance. No dollar is ever taxed 'finally', it's a continuous process that involves taxes in most steps. Say you earn a dollar, it gets taxed and 70 cents remain. You go to a store and want to use those 70 cents to buy something. You don't actually get 70 cents worth of product because of sales tax. (See also VAT.)
Uh. The debts are paid with the riches before any inheritance is passed on. That’s part of the process.
https://www.dummies.com/personal-finance/estate-planning/how...
My children are not entitled to my estate. My wealth is my private property, not theirs; I am free to direct its disposition as (my spouse and) I see fit. That's the essence of private property rights for the net-positive case.
For the net-negative case, it's a matter of practicality. Your personal debts die with you (they are settled as part of the estate settlement process and if the estate runs out of money, some creditors go without).
If you think inter-generational wealth continuity is a problem now, just imagine how much worse it would be if debt were passed along via negative inheritance.
Most certainly the ill-gotten gains must be clawed back. Are you seriously positing that you should keep illegally obtained money because you yourself didn't know?
Punishment is another story, of course it wasn't your fault, so you won't do the time, but you certainly don't get to be rich off the proceeds of the crime.
ie If I rob a bank and leave the money for my kids, they don't get to keep the money when the feds finally crack the case.
To circle back on collective punishment - there's a reason why the North, after winning the civil war, has largely chose not to collectively punish the South - in much the same way that other regions which suffered through terrible civil wars where terrible crimes were committed, frequently choose to replace punishment of many of those responsible with something like reconciliation committees, where symbolic gestures are accepted in lieu of prison or capital punishment.
post-hoc punishment is the only reasonable punishment. The alternative it to punish people before they commit a crime, and that seems immoral at best.
> push a policy
My guess, it was already illegal to poison the environment. They just got caught now.
> those responsible with something like reconciliation committees ... symbolic gestures are accepted in lieu of prison or capital punishment.
Corporations are not people. You can punish a corporation without any of that considerations.
Maybe a little charitable interpretation is warranted?
I clearly meant, post hoc rationalization for the punishment. Typically you punish when AN EXISTING law is broken. In this case, OP is arguing for new punishment based on new laws that were broken in the past.
>My guess, it was already illegal to poison the environment
No. The devil is in the definition of 'poison the environment'. We have coal plants that 'poison the environment'. We have solar panels, that through manufacturing, maintenance and decommissioning, 'poison the environment'.
>Corporations are not people. You can punish a corporation without any of that considerations.
Who owns corporations? This "corporations are not people" is such a cliché. All the rights that corporations have stem from the rights of the owners. Corporations have rights, because the owners have rights.
And who says the corporations are solely responsible? An unincorporated contractor may be responsible as well.
This is simply not true. All of the rights that corporations have stem from a public-interest grant by the state. If the rights of corporations came from the owners, we 1) could jail stockholders for the crimes of the corporation, and 2) wouldn't need corporations, because all they are is liability shields.
Corporations aren't actual people, they're statutory people. Little branches of the government.
That is exactly true.
>All of the rights that corporations have stem from a public-interest grant by the state.
That's right. But that's missing half the equation. If property rights weren't enshrined to corporations, and corporations could be arbitrarily raided by any two-bit socialist politician, nobody would incorporate. And those property rights come from the property rights of the owners because if the owners own the corporations, and if the corporations property rights are violated, then it follows the owners property rights are violated. If I own a corporation, that owns a local business (maybe a grocery store, or a autobody shop), and a looter steals from the store, I, the owner lose. Remember those videos of store owners in tears when looters and rioters destroyed their stores - some (all?) of those business owners are incorporated, so why are they in tears if it's just corporate property that was affected??????
Go on...
"Corporations aren't actual people, they're statutory people. Little branches of the government."
Oh.
I'd be ecstatic if we resumed chartering of corporations. If corporations are "people", we should be able to "unpeople" (terminate) them.
I've long hoped that progressives and libertarians could find common ground over the need to reign in corporations.
I've always found it weird that "freedom from oppression" minded people prefer Big Corp over Big Govt. As you point out, corporations are just more government, but without all that troublesome accountability, transparency, and democratic oversight.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC#Argumen...
"During the original oral argument, Deputy Solicitor General Malcolm L. Stewart (representing the FEC) argued that under Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce, the government would have the power to ban books if those books contained even one sentence expressly advocating the election or defeat of a candidate and were published or distributed by a corporation or labor union. In response to this line of questioning, Stewart further argued that under Austin the government could ban the digital distribution of political books over the Amazon Kindle or prevent a union from hiring an author to write a political book."
Isn't a "attempted X" quite common crime? I.e. attempted murder. I would say it is quite common and moral to punnish people before they commit the crime.
I don’t see why it needs to be arbitrary, and all punishment occurs post hoc.
It's arbitrary because we're creating a new standard and judging (and punishing) those who did not follow it in the past. And OP is clearly arbitrary in their reasoning. They suggested collective punishment and didn't bother thinking through the implications of how that policy would be implemented and what unintended consequences it would have.
>and all punishment occurs post hoc.
Post hoc rationalization for punishment. The actions taken were legal at the time, and OP argued that that shouldn't stand in the way of punishing those individuals (or their descendants) today.
Often brought to us by the same people (present company not necessarily included) who previously insisted that "the science isn't settled".
What's your agreement threshold for collective action?
"there's a reason why the North, after winning the civil war, has largely chose not to collectively punish the South..."
And how'd that work out?
I'm befuddled by the false choice of "do nothing" and "make them pay".
What about Truth and Reconciliation? Conduct an honest accounting of what happened, what we've learned, and how we're going to fix it.
Think of it as a post mortem. Hopefully not literally.
Imagine setting the precedent that the government can unilaterally decide to steal your property based on something your great grandfather did which wasn't even a crime. Do you not see how such a power might be abused in future when you can retroactively punish people for laws where the ink has yet to dry and that they never even committed?
Where's the line between knowingingly circumventing the spirit of the law by following the letter.
For example Teflon has been replaced with chemically similar compounds that just aren't Teflon. It'll take decades for the studies to come in, in the mean time every human is being exposed to these chemicals in significant amounts.
Then we have bpa, Neonicotinoids and other pesticides. We have cases where companies knowingly sell talc contaminated with asbestos for decades.
We know these products kill people, we now the companies that make thenknow they are killing people and yet we can't claw back decades of fraudulently acquired profits and revenues?
Imo, we should treat these behaviors like Nazis where everything they touched gets seized, even decades later. If that ruins some lives, well, whose worse off? The injured class or the child who inherited blood money?
Also, what if the company has been acquired since then, is it still on the hook? What if they've since switched markets entirely? What if the company disbanded and the founders created a new company in the same market? There's no clean way to deal out punishment in a legally unambiguous or overreaching way.
Both/And. It's a regulation failure, and the unscrupulous take advantage it.
> Also, what if the company has been acquired since then, is it still on the hook?
It might not be clean, but I do believe it is unambiguous. Yes, the purchaser is still on the hook, and they should check their purchase agreement for the company to see if they can seek restitution from the original owners (assuming the risk of future litigation wasn't disclosed or waived). In this case the company knew they were externalizing a toxic chemical and did it anyways, thus they are liable to the extent the law allows. The original owner is potentially liable for breach of the purchase agreement if that risk wasn't disclosed to the new owner.
> That will never stand up in court.
What's your point or objection to a hypothetical future?
"Equality under the law" is a pretty strong argument. Corporations are legal people, and the law treats all people the same. Setting up classes of people with different laws that apply differently is absolutely not something that would fly.
That is incorrect. Under some contexts and situations, they are treated and considered the same as people. This is not the same thing. IBM isn't sent a ballot to vote, it is not a "legal person".
I've never heard of a corporation going to jail or being given the chair.
I'm sure the people of Libby, Montana would have an interesting take on this.
Imagine if your grandfather or great grandfather killed people in the Concentration camps and then harvested all the gold and silver from their victims and then left that money to you? You live in wealth from others destroyed lives. This is a same thing but with the ramifications relieved later. People who knowingly dumped toxic sludge into the environment, cashed in a portion of my life so they and their children and grandchildren could live wealthy lives. And yes, it was all legal in both cases too.
We've gotten way too fixated on the theoretical worst case to realize that we're already living in a pretty bad story.
Let's deal with future harms when they happen, but let's deal with existing ones now.
Well, you don't have to imagine it, because that's reality.
That won't work, we have an entire political party in the United States hell bent on making sure people have no common sense. The GOP are a selfish cancer on civilization.
The idea that a government can make something illegal and retroactively punish previous offenders is so colossally bad that in the United States the Founding Fathers wrote a prohibition against it into the Constitution.
It's not an amendment, such as the right to free speech. They wrote it into Article 1.
There are even plenty of examples in the page you link of justifiable ex post facto laws. For example war crimes.
To be honest, because of the devastating long term effects of environmental pollution, and the deaths it has caused, I would quite happily argue that laws applying to it could be ex post facto. Crimes against future generations.
I remember covering this in my philosophy degree and you can argue about it for hours. The example I remember was Nazi collaborators who reported on Jews or resistance fighters or even falsely accused neighbours.
They got people killed, often maliciously, but what they did was perfectly legal at the time. Should they have gotten away with their complicity or should they have ex post facto laws brought against them?
In the time of the US founders, the scale of damage a single human or company could conceivably do for profit was a lot less.
It has more to do with tolerance of callousness and stupidity in previous decades than it has to do with there not being a specific law against dumping specifically DDT into the ocean.
If the settlement was reached based on incomplete or false information or representations from the company, the government may still have recourse.
So even if the settlement per-se remains in force, a substantial fine or even a new criminal case may still be possible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder
The constitution commands the congress to do this "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."
The people who wrote the constitution knew how the crown was abusing people. They wrote it specifically to stop that. It is also attached in many cases to state constitutions.
Specifically in this case
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...
Also I am not a lawyer so ....
Perhaps a middle ground can be reached. Where there is some sort of incentive for the inheritors of who did it, to fix it?
However, there was always a principle of civil liability of damages caused, so this should still be applicable.
That's how I thought it was when I was a kid... now I can only wish it was in some instances.
> Common sense should be the first law
They weren't hiding anything, the bulk went to government designated dumping sites. Shortcuts were taken, but it was known and accepted that these were being dumped into the ocean. Common sense at the time was "dilution is the solution to pollution".
Incredible.
(Just pay no mind to how those externalities might be systematically priced and how penalties might be retroactively enforced. If you do you're a freedom-hating socialist!)
The fact that DDT outlasted the scientists' careers is another strike (among many) against untrammeled libertarian free market thinking.
(In case it isn't clear to anyone, this is heavy sarcasm and a reference to a well known satirical skit.)
Who will regulate the government?
Regulate that.
1. https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2015/04/bp-corexit-d...
> Corexit is a go-to product for energy companies like BP when they’re dealing with massive spills.
Wikipedia shows that BP's usage was by a very wide margin the largest use of Corexit, so I suppose I'm going to stop buying BP too.
What strikes me as strange is that Californians, or Americans, don't see themselves as one nation of people with one overriding interest - to keep their ecosystem pure and habitable so their people can thrive and prosper.
I know that's naive. In America individuals are free to pursue any activity that is permitted by law. Prosperity is measured in dollars, and breaches of the law require a lot of dollars to be exposed and rectified. The national purpose works differently to other countries, particularly smaller nations in which the people are more in contact with nature every day.
Still, I can't help but wonder whether most Americans would be happier if things worked differently, and catastrophes like the DDT dump were able to be rectified in a unified national effort. I'm not sure why that doesn't happen, or what makes it so unlikely.
Now let's look at what we have in IT today…
> Between 1945 and 1965, DDT saved millions-even tens of millions-of lives around the world, perhaps more than any other man-made drug or chemical before or since.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2001/07/02/the-mosquito-k...
> The most effective means of preventing malaria is sleeping under a mosquito net, specifically a long-lasting insecticide treated net (LLIN).
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/decaying-weapo...
More recently, see e.g. Trafigura https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-10735255 (and what they've tried to hide with libel lawsuits)
The WW2 stuff is bad but seems now to be inert, although occasionally someone finds a phosphorous shell on a beach in Scotland. https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/a-dangerous-guide-to-bea...
More seriously, there is the SS Richard Montgomery, not dumped but sank during the war, carrying a thousand tons of explosives ... right next to London. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomery
> From 1946 to 1970, the sea around the Farallones was used as a nuclear dumping site for radioactive waste under the authority of the Atomic Energy Commission at a site known as the Farallon Island Nuclear Waste Dump. Most of the dumping took place before 1960, and all dumping of radioactive wastes by the United States was terminated in 1970. By then, 47,500 containers (55-gallon steel drums) had been dumped in the vicinity, with a total estimated radioactive activity of 14,500 Ci. The materials dumped were mostly laboratory materials containing traces of contamination. Much of the radioactivity had decayed by 1980.
We do this to Earth and we think we'll do better on Mars?
It’s sad to think about but it’s hard to argue we don’t deserve it after all.
And Samuel Rotrosen was only mentioned once, buried deep down many paragraphs in.
So much so that in all the comments here, I am the only one to mention the name of the person who seems ultimately responsible for this, Samuel Rotrosen.
Why can't we develop a nanobot that is able to detect the chemical in the soil or ocean and then break down or decompose that molecule?
> Why can't we develop a nanobot that is able to detect the chemical in the soil or ocean and then break down or decompose that molecule?
We could, in theory, but a faster approach (that is already being used) is harnessing existing organisms.
Bioremediation is an approach being actively researched, and recent advances in genetic engineering (eg. CRISPR) ought to help a lot.
A search for "DDT bioremediation" will show you the research on this that is being done (not a huge amount, but progress is being made). There are probably some opportunities for B2G startups in this area.
I don't believe DDT would be consumed in any normal explosion.
Is there a free link?
Just look back at WW2 and the number of merchant ships[1] that were sunk! Then throw in all the warships that went down during both world wars.
Of course we have quite a bit of radioactive material in the oceans as well[2][3]
[0]https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/decaying-weapo...
[1] http://www.usmm.org/shipsunkdamaged.html
[2] http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2017/ph241/stevens2/
[3] https://e360.yale.edu/features/radioactivity_in_the_ocean_di...
But one leaking barrel of DDT will affect an ecosystem for far longer than one leaking barrel of Sarin, and do more damage where it hurts the ecosystem the most by accumulating as it creeps up the trophic pyramid.
That it has a shelf life of a few months doesn't mean it's innocuous afterwards. WWI mustard gas ammunitions remain dangerous today.
And if they're anything like explosives, some of those compounds would become more dangerous over time, not less, due to getting less stable. Not to mention the degradation of the delivery system itself.
Apparently: "Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane, commonly known as DDT, is a colorless, tasteless, and almost odorless crystalline chemical compound, an organochlorine."
edit: added explanation
DDT.
> The world today wrestles with microplastics, bisphenol A (BPA), per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) and other toxics so unnatural they don’t seem to ever go away. But DDT — the all-but-indestructible compound dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane, which first stunned and jolted the public into environmental action — persists as an unsolved and largely forgotten problem.
And I'm sure Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane wouldn't add much for most people that read a newspaper :)
What IBM is would typically be clear from the context: "IBM reported record loss in 2nd quarter of 2020".
> From 1947 to 1982, the nation’s largest manufacturer of DDT — a pesticide so powerful that it poisoned birds and fish — was based in Los Angeles.