Hacker News Reader

Comment by lprd | Hacker News Reader

How much is citizenship?

You can't really buy the citizenship. (At least officially) You still have to live there for years.

But the residency starts at $3M NZ if you're a recurring visitor https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/visas/inve...

I think the point is that there are unofficial routes: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/29/new-zealand-ga...

They're very much official routes. The US also has 'private bills' in which Congress can make anybody, even criminals and other individuals ineligible under the current INA, into US citizens. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-02-04-mn-1209-s...

After the epic shitstorm that Thiel's citizenship caused, I don't see any appetite for further dispensations of citizenship by Ministers.

Ha! That's not true at all. Having rich Americans come is actually a public policy option that was openly debated in the papers during the election.

Basically, New Zealand has turned into a real estate operation that sells milk on the side. Despite record highs all parties have made it their explicit goal to keep housing prices high. Having rich people come buy real estate is really considered a great idea. I'm shocked but that's the way it works here.

Don't quite agree.

The Immigration Minister can give out exceptions to the citizenship process but the point is they're not going to be giving out any more exceptions as extreme as the one they gave to Thiel, because noone was happy the Minister did that.

That's different from the above-board process for easing the path to permanent residency/citizenship with investment money, (residency visas for investors and entrepreneurs) which is considered a good idea.

Also how can you claim "all parties" want to keep selling real estate to rich foreigners when Labour outlawed it last term, and made a very big fuss about doing so? But other parties clearly want to be in that business.

As @versteegen said, Thiel came in under Ministerial dispensation, not the usual visa program which has space for investors and skilled migrants.

I do largely agree with your real estate operation zinger. Since Europeans came here, it has always been thus. The New Zealand Company was set up as a flip scheme -- buy land from Māori at low price and sell high to settlers. The New Zealand Wars were fought to free up land for more such enterprise. If you're curious about the New Zealand Company, I can recommend Patricia Burns's "Fatal Success: a History of the New Zealand Company". (And, in general for NZ history, the "Black Sheep" podcast)

The Detail had a really good piece on the current state of NZ immigration, fwiw: <https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-detail/300122700/the-de...> I believe one of their interviewees made the point that previous governments have used immigration to prop up/grow the economy. I can see why: it's one of the few straightforward levers they have. (Which policy settings will create a Google in NZ? Dunno. Which policy settings create more domestic commerce and thus boost GDP? Easy!)

So an American with $2M to invest and a desire to live in NZ can simply invest in equities, bonds, and real estate and become a citizen in 4 years?

And once you're a citizen, you enjoy unlimited social and health benefits indefinitely?

Can someone from NZ tell me why this shouldn't be my retirement plan?

Not from NZ, but consider this: do you want to San Francisco-ize (multiply living costs, entrench a landlord caste & create weird incentives for local politics) the place? Because lots of foreign money simply walking into a heretofore sedate local real estate and business ecosystem is how you do that. Cf. Toronto, SF, Paris, London, Munich &c

> Not from NZ [...] sedate local real estate

Clearly! House prices here are very high already. See e.g. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2017/03/new-zealand-hou..., https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/83750475/nz-tops-imfs...

And I am a little hopeful (but doubtful) that might be starting to change. Massive numbers of houses have been consented to be built (especially in the last few years). But just building more probably won't be a permanent solution.

https://www.stats.govt.nz/topics/housing https://www.hud.govt.nz/news-and-resources/statistics-and-re... https://www.imf.org/external/research/housing/index.htm

Auckland already has one of the highest house price:median income ratios in the world.

Alot of people from China / India who get rejected in Australia, will go to NZ to do just that, because once an NZ Citizen, you can live/work in Australia.

Edit: Well maybe not alot, but when I lived in NZ 15 years ago, it was enough that Australia would complain about it.

Australia complains a lot, about many things... ;)

Especially if kiwis are involved :D

Australia retaliated and now it is very hard for kiwis to become citizens of Australia or get the same benefits as citizens or permanent residents.

I think that's two different things tho.

Alot of kiwis were coming to Australia and going on the dole right away. So alot of the benefits only kick in after residing in the country for minimum 1 year. But the benefits still exist.

I was referring to those who were rejected for residency in Australia, gain citizenship in New Zealand, then move to Australia to live/work.

I believe if you were born in New Zealand, its still (relatively) easy to get Citizenship in Australia, but if you weren't born in NZ and have NZ citizenship, it's much harder.

It's actually very hard for Kiwis to get citizenship, because the special category visa that lets them live here permanently isn't actually permanent residency, and so there isn't a path to citizenship.

(Source: Kiwi friend who was trying to get citizenship for himself and his kids who were born here)

Hmmm a few of the kiwis I went to school with all got citizenship.

It changed not long ago.

Ah ok yeah this was like 5-6 years ago. I haven’t lived in Australia for 9 years now so I donno how much has changed. Prob a lot! Lol

> So alot of the benefits only kick in after residing in the country for minimum 1 year.

What benefits? I'm not aware of any benefits Kiwi's arriving post 2001 get, apart from some reciprocal medical care, and some allowances to buy property and so forth. Actual money-for-nothing benefits, not so much.

> I believe if you were born in New Zealand, its still (relatively) easy to get Citizenship in Australia, but if you weren't born in NZ and have NZ citizenship, it's much harder.

Assuming we're talking about the Skilled Independent visa (subclass 189) New Zealand stream [0], then it's easier than for people coming from other countries, but I wouldn't say easy. It's also about AUD$4000 per person.

[0] https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-li...

The dole. I don’t know what you call it in Australia. When you don’t work and government gives you money. It used to be you could apply after landing. But now you need to live in Australia without leaving for 12 months before you can apply.

We also can get the baby bonus. My sister got it when her son was born. That was only 2012 I think. Well after 2001...

We don’t pay for hospital. And Medicare can only be applied for if you stay for 6 months without leaving for any reason.

If you seriously consider enjoying "unlimited" social and health benefits of NZ, you may just retire immediately with $2M in bank and lead more luxurious life in most places in the world no matter if you are 60 or 20 years old.

IIRC $2M is enough to "buy" a Swiss citizenship too, so that kind of money really enables you to live basically anywhere in the world and you need a specific retirement plan only if you want to spend a lot of cash regularly for the rest of your life. Personally I would not even think about working to get paid anymore if I had even $1M, but ofc that's just me and my modest living standards.

You can do it for even less in most of EU countries. You just need to get a job or create a company to get a work visa, and then stay for 5 or 6 years, learn some basic language and that's it.

Indeed. Portugal has their Golden Visa which only requires a 500k EUR investment in real estate. You get temporary residency and potential permanent residency or citizenship after 5 years.

It's kind of interesting to dig into. The residency requirements are quite low - 7 days in the first year, 14 days for subsequent 2 year period). So by the 5 year mark, you'd only need to spend 35 days in country.

There are even companies that will find real estate for you, rent it out and guarantee 100% return of capital after 5 years. Turn key solution to EU residency! [1]

[1]https://www.artoncapital.com/global-citizen-programs/portuga...

If it social and health benefits, just relocate to any EU country with a local contract. You would beed a visa, si, but once here you are covered like everyone else.

Check out the new Global Impact Visa. It's a really unique visa for startup founders who get into an incubator-like programme. You don't need any money yourself (just the ability to attract investment) and it lets you spend lots of time outside the country but still get permanent residency in 30 months. https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-nz/visas/glob...

Not NZ but in Malta it costs around 1-1.5mln eur. I imagine it could be more expensive than NZ as Malta's passport grants you free travel and work possibility across entire EU.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/business/dealbook/malta-o...

Malta has cancelled this programme because it was breeding ground for corruption.

They got pressured by the EU to cancel it, the corruption concern is not exactly new (or surprising).

Just to add some colour... You don't PAY 1m, you INVEST 1m in a Maltese business and they GIVE you the citizenship as you still own whatever you invested in. Find a nice hotel you can buy a share of and you're laughing...

NZ starts at 3 m $ up to 10 m $ +. More $ gives more points. This is NZ $.

Portugal is cheaper, just buy real estate for 350-500k€ and you'll get residency, just 5 years later you can get citizenship.

There are even some service that'll offer to "loan" you a property by buying at back for the price you bought it for after you got your residency.

Unsurprisingly, house prices in Lisbon and Porto have become unaffordable for the locals.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com