Comment by woeirua | Hacker News Reader

Comment by woeirua | Hacker News Reader

It's neat, and a good application of the technology, but honestly I don't see this taking off because the gap between the tech and execution is closing quickly. Comma was really far ahead of everyone 5 years ago. But... we have gone from a situation where the Level 2 systems available in most new cars went from an impractical gimmick, to very useful and comparable to this in just a few years. New Toyota's (MY 2020) are pretty comparable to this at no extra cost. It's really hard to see why you would buy this system for $1100 if you can just buy a new car and get this all for free, plus a bunch of additional safety features that OpenPilot obviously can't include: backup sensors, blind spot monitors, etc.

I don't think manufacturers will outsource the development of their ADAS systems to Comma (or anyone else for that matter) because they view it as a potential short-term differentiator. The existing differentiators are collapsing quickly: reliability is no longer a major concern for EVs, infotainment is lost cause (Carplay and Android Auto won decisively). Aside from ADAS, we're looking at a scenario where in 10 years the only reason to buy from company X vs company Y might be price.

I'm glad you are happy with your new Toyota but I think you are giving too much confidence in it's ability. Look at this evaluation between OpenPilot and Toyota TSS 2.0 https://youtu.be/z5-inxH92wM

Also free to checkout navigating SF with OpenPilot https://youtu.be/0TpMMoQ7GGg (30 min). I highly doubt you would find similar results with a Toyota TSS 2.0 system. Nevertheless, I will let the contents of the videos speak for themselves.

I have a Subaru with Eyesight, not a Toyota. But my point was more so that one of the most popular car manufacturers is giving away a system that is probably 70% as good as OpenPilot.

Those videos didn't really change my mind. I'm not convinced at all that it's really that much better on the highway. It's definitely better for non-highway driving, but it also had a few disengagements that he had to intervene for.

Look, if it was $1000 for Level 5 autonomy I would be the first in line to purchase it. But it's clearly not anywhere close to that yet.

I have a 2019 Subaru with Eyesight. The system isn't half as good as you think it is. The comma system is seriously so far ahead in regards to LKAS (lane centering, cornering, etc) than Subaru's eyesight system.

They never said Subaru's system was as good as Comma's. They were talking about Toyota's.

It was a bit confusing because they don't own a Toyota, but they do own a Subaru.

> New Toyota's (MY 2020)

> I have a Subaru with Eyesight, not a Toyota.

I'm guessing MY = Model Year?

I did buy a new car a few months ago, and the best possible driver assist features were a priority for me. I bought Chrysler Pacifica minivan with their "advanced" driver assist package. It's just an adaptive cruise control plus warnings when I drift off out of a clearly marked lane. It does not offer a lane keeping ability.

That's a $50k 2020 model with all premium features added. I haven't tried Comma, but from what I can see it can actually drive itself in the most routine situation - staying in a lane on a freeway. My Pacifica can't do that, even though it has 8 cameras and a radar.

This is a legitimate criticism. I can't for the life of me, figure out why manufacturers are still artificially segmenting their products with software. Some cars have had fairly capable lane tracing since the 2019 MY, and others still don't for the 2021 MY.

However, now that I have the adaptive cruise control, I get anxious that I might get into an accident when I think it's enabled while it isn't. Another concern is that it won't be able to apply braking hard enough when a collision is imminent - in such situation it flashes a red warning on the display and sounds an alarm prompting me to brake, but because I haven't been actively adjusting speed with my foot, it might increase my reaction time.

So perhaps having more of those "half way there" self driving features could lead to more of such anxiety, I'm not sure. And I don't know who I would trust more, a car manufacturer, or someone like Comma AI, with my safety. Leaning towards car manufacturers to be honest.

At least with manufacturers you know who to sue if something goes wrong. I'm pretty sure that Comma has set this all up to shed as much liability as possible since they make you flash the unit with the right software.

At least personally (as someone driving openpilot pretty regularly) I'm a lot happier to trust openpilot than the stock system in my car since openpilot watches the driver and nags you (and eventually disengages) if you don't pay attention to the road. With the stock system I have to trust myself more.

Yeah, the stock driver assists in most cars still need a LOT of work. I drove from San Diego to LA last weekend with a comma, and openpilot handled the entire trip without a single disengagement until I got off the highway. I’d be really impressed to see a stock LKA manage the same (although I’ve heard great things about super cruise!)

It's really hard to see why you would buy this system for $1100 if you can just buy a new car and get this all for free

A key phrase here is "just buy a new car". You might be able to afford that but most can't.

I don't know what Comma AI's market strategy is but I would imagine there is a huge potential aftermarket for gizmos like this in capable older motors, with that growing as time moves on and the enabling technology takes hold.

I'm not sure about that. You have to have a relatively recent vehicle for this to work, because steer-by-wire only became common place in the last few years as manufacturers started adding ADAS systems. This wont work on any car with hydraulic steering, which rules out a lot of cars.

The only manufacturer who is doing better than Comma is Tesla. Every single manufacturer (including Audi and Cadillac) are years behind Comma in terms of performance.

Then why don't manufacturer just use openpilot ? afaik its free and the code is in the github.

Liability maybe? The same reason why everything except for TACC with Tesla is considered beta and you have to consent to always be ready to intervene to use it.

I guess the trained models themselves are not free,

But George is selling it fir the same price to them as well, they just don’t want to rely on him.

Is that true though? I know that Hyundai at least has demonstrated a true level 4 system in Korea. It hasn't made its way to any production vehicles yet, but I suspect that's partially because the regulatory regime is still up in the air. Part of the real risk with releasing something right now is that you'll end up with a system that is not compliant with whatever the regulations eventually require.

The average car in the US is 11 years old.

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