Strong humming for one hour daily to terminate chronic rhinosinusitis (2006) | Hacker News Reader

Strong humming for one hour daily to terminate chronic rhinosinusitis (2006)

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

143 pointssimon_00066669 comments

From (2006). Since then it's had 23 cites, mostly in the context of alternative medicine. The one study that seemed to investigate it[1] dismissed it in passing.

The guy publishes a lot in Medical Hypotheses, on a wide range of topics (topical gallium for arthritis, taurine for cardiac arrythmia, magnesium for depression). The email address is at "coldcure.com".

Which strikes me as having a whiff of crankery to it, but I'm far from my domain of expertise.

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ghamartaj_Khanbabaee/pu...

This fits the 'novel, unexpected, and unusual' byline that provide the perfect butter for things to go viral. Pseudo-science often has these features sadly (not to assume he's wrong here, even clocks strikes right, etc).

Edit: coldcure.com was recently sold off but prior to that it had a long history of hocking naturpath "common cold cure" pills

https://web.archive.org/web/20060103011343/http://www.coldcu...

From a 1995 NYTimers article about the author George Elby

> MORE than 10 years ago, George A. Eby, a city planner turned self-educated pharmacologist, made headlines with a study showing that zinc lozenges could cut down the average length of a cold to about 4 days from nearly 11. [...] Although several studies have subsequently supported Mr. Eby's initial findings, others have found no such link between zinc and the common cold.

https://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/29/business/patents-751395.h...

I'd keep my bullshit meter slightly higher on this one.

Zinc does seem to shorten the common cold though, although less than originally thought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_and_the_common_cold

Even it’s that’s the case seeing how his sales page pushes it as a “cure” from common colds.

He seems to hold a lower standard of scientific proof than one would hope and put his name and reputation on the line to back it up.

I don't want to take away from your fine comment, but although I like the image of a website forcefully spitting out pills, I feel compelled to note pedantically that you probably meant "hawk" rather than "hock": https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hawk (Verb 3) vs https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hock.

It does sound plausible, because I believe sleep apnea can get some help by playing the didgeridoo which is along the same lines.

Of course plausible edge cases might be the best clickbait, so yeah.

The sleep apnea help comes from strengthening muscles in your throat, it wouldn’t have anything to do with sinuses.

ha, no I meant that it's sort of a direct physical intervention.

for example, I think a lot of the benefits of exercise might be to just jostling your body.

I'm humming while reading your comment though. I'll check back tomorrow morning.

Hacker news is full of pseudo science lately, all sorts of anecdotal medical advice keeps popping up on the front page.

Unfortunately being good at computers doesn’t make you good at recognising BS.

And you don't even have to be good with computers to read Hacker News...

In case you haven't noticed, in medicine there are some conditions for which no one-size-fits all cure exists. I happen to suffer from chronic sinusitis since my youth and am actually trying this right now, even if I only see a slim chance that it will work (tried about 10 doctors in the last 30 years, had operations, nasal showers, cortisone, etc.).

Btw, did you know that a digital rectal massage can terminate chronic hickups? Look it up, it won an ig Nobel prize.

An hour a day is a lot. However, as someone who suffers from allergies and is not able to control symptoms with allergy medications alone, I am willing to give it a try (although this method is intended to treat irritation from fungus). Incidentally, this reminds me of something very similar for treating COPD called the "Lung Flute". It also works by using low frequency vibrations to clear the airways in the lungs.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4299801/

I had the same thought. There’s a particular interview about that where the writer confessed that after trying out the flute he fell into a serious coughing fit.

But I thought it was more for Cystic Fibrosis than Obstructive Pulmonary disease (they do have their own breathing exercises and devices to increase breathing muscles and lung capacity though).

A bad coughing fit often means My lungs are clearing. I will feel much better in a bit. Usually after an inhaler.

Or I have an embolism. That’s less fun

Any time lung health comes up and I can squeeze it into conversation: Belly Breathing is amazing. I started in college, and I have had two chest colds in my entire adult life (and only one up until a couple years ago).

Diaphragmatic breathing (autocomplete tells me that's the word but it don't look right) assists the cilia in ejecting foreign matter from the lower lungs. When I was a kid I'd feel like I was drowning when the cold hit its apex, even when I was into endurance sports, and I knew I was on the mend when I started clearing my lungs.

(If there's a downside it's that I clear my throat all the fucking time when I have a cold now, but I'll take loud over bacterial pneumonia)

Have you tied immunotherapy? It's become much easier in the USA recently with the arrival of allergy drops. see Wyndly Health https://www.wyndly.com

Idiopathic rhinitis: you’re having a histamine reaction but you have no antibodies for any allergens.

Basically, you’re allergic to dust. I don’t think they’ve worked out how to treat for that.

another anecdote, but i was having chronic chest pains and unsure why. it felt to me like some sort of mild infection, and discomfort. typical for me, i reluctantly went to the doctor, they couldn't find anything, and all my tests checked out fine. every few saturdays during the lockdown, myself and my neighbors/close friends would have some mushrooms. one time i was laughing a lot for an extended period of time, like really laughing, and it made me cough up some mucus, and that cleared me instantly of my ongoing chest pain. no doubt that unconventional "treatments" or solutions can help certain ailments, or at the very least, hearing other people's experiences can help when highly, maybe overly, trained professionals may miss the simplicity of a problem.

I do mantra chanting and noticed that if I chant it louder then after 5 minutes my nasal congestion starts melting away. So definitely humming helps and if you do rythmic humming like part of mantra then the effects are manifold

Interesting and might help. I guess? Still strongly suggest going to the doctor if you get sinus infections a lot.

After _years_ of trouble I finally went to an ENT. Turns out a poorly-healed broken nose caused a 90% obstruction of a nostril. They fixed my nose, and my sinuses cleared up mostly.

Same story, except congenital defects impairing both airways. Humming might still be helpful now that I’ve had surgery to create airways at all, but it’s no cure for blocked airways themselves.

Singing may reduce snoring https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11068344/

I learned about this and many other techniques from the book "The Oxygen Advantage". It definitely makes a big difference but I wouldn't say that it completely resolved it but then I haven't been practicing consistently.

Hmmmmm

In all seriousness, this is rather interesting. Fungus can cause chronic nasal irritation. Nasal nitric oxide (a naturally-generated fungicide) increases 15- to 20-fold by humming compared with quiet exhalation. It's a small dataset, but an interesting hypothesis/finding.

I was hoping it'd be more applicable to my situation (exercise-induced rhinitis).

I wonder if some part of the answer is in the vibration affecting cell behavior (regeneration, reduced inflammation).

Vibration sometimes increases circulation to areas being vibrated, and increased circulation feeds more oxygen to cells while they are being agitated.

I found, through a coincidence, that lip trills really seemed to open up my sinuses. I wonder if this is related?

https://youtu.be/fwNPp-RS4IY

Can you describe 'lip thrills' further please?

Probably autocorrected version of “trills”

spelling mistake. I added a YouTube link. Its sort of like humming and blowing a raspberry.

This is meat, and I'll be forwarding it to my ENT and allergist. I have chronic sinus issues that so far have yet to respond to much.

I used to have serious sinus issues but these days it's mostly fine. What changed everything for me was Yogic nose cleansing, running body temperatured salt water through the sinuses on a daily basis. The first few weeks I had really weird stuff coming out with the water, definitely not something you'd want clogged up in your sinuses.

Yep. When my Dr. diagnosed sinusitis, he suggested trying Neti Pot. It helps a lot.

Said same here in this thread, with more details and corroborating links:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24784494

I have an issue which may or may not be a sinus issue:

I have phlegm in my throat, constantly. I need to clear my throat (through voluntary coughing) every few minutes. If I don't do that, the phlegm dries in place and I end up with a restricted airway and difficulty breathing. I can't really sing because my voice will catch on the phlegm.

If you know of anyone with this symptom, or who is familiar with this symptom, please let me know.

So far I've seen an allergist, an ENT, and a gastroenterologist, and the response from each has been "that's not my problem, see someone else". (The ENT did at least stick a camera through my nose and photograph phlegm stuck to the sides of my throat, which gives me a response to the people who say "what if you're just imagining it?")

Do you smoke anything? I quit smoking everything because of similar symptoms and it all went away after a month of coughing heavier than when I smoked. Try going “ha!”, “hoah!”, “huh!”. Any help?

No, I don't smoke.

And I've been coughing for three years. :/

[edit:

Sometimes when I cough there is a tearing sensation. If this happens, I generally interpret it as phlegm being dislodged from a place where my coughing wasn't getting it before. I will generally devote a lot of extra effort to coughing at that point. No effect overall, though.

A couple of times I've brought up blood spots after some particularly dedicated coughing.]

Any autoimmune problems? Thick fluids can be a sign of cystic fibrosis and similar non-fun.

None that I'm aware of. Would this be the only manifestation?

probably not but some can kick in later in life too. theres a cheap "sweat salinity" test they give to newborns a doctor can do to rule out a family of such things.

Have you been screened for lung cancer?

I've had two chest X-rays, the second of which was a response to my report that I'd coughed up blood.

Have you tried an elimination diet to check whether it could be a reaction to something you're consuming?

I've tried the following things:

- Claritin

- Flonase

- Ranitidine (Zantac)

- Omeprazole

- A diet based around avoiding things that "might" cause heartburn. This list included literally everything I eat; this project had to be abandoned. But for a while there I was basically only eating chicken soup and milk.

- An allergy battery (negative on all tests)

- Nasal irrigation

- Mucinex

Try Pantoprazole.

I had the same issue, and it didn't respond to Inexium (PPI) but cleared up totally with Pantoprazole.

I'm on pantoprazole now. (The Mucinex is also current.) I just hadn't listed it due to classing it with omeprazole.

The ranitidine, omeprazole, and pantoprazole are all intended to treat pain[1] from heartburn, and they've all worked at first and gradually lost effectiveness. (While still being mostly effective, just not totally effective.)

However, going without heartburn pain for weeks at a time has not helped my throat. When this didn't work, the gastroenterologist put a sensor down my throat for a day to record pH levels, and reported the results to me with "good news! You don't have heartburn!"

Of course, I do have heartburn. The response to "in that case, what does it mean that I have this burning chest pain after eating which is immediately relieved by tums?" was "well, some people are more sensitive to acid than others".

(I have many classic symptoms of acid reflux, including minor regurgitation of food after eating, "globus sensation" (feeling of a ball in the throat) when swallowing, and of course burning pain in the chest.)

But I continue the heartburn medication anyway, because heartburn hurts and I independently want to avoid it. :/

[1] Actually, they're intended to suppress the acid itself, not the pain you feel from exposure to it.

Maybe try eliminating the dairy products for a couple weeks just to see? Some people find that they cause phlegm but it varies by individual.

Have you tried the "functional medicine" approach to treating heartburn?

The theory is: instead of "too much stomach acid" being the problem, sometimes it's "too little stomach acid". Age, medications, and infections may all lead to reduced stomach acid production, which leads to unwanted fermentation and impaired digestion of carbohydrates in the stomach, which increases the production of gas, which increases intra-abdominal pressure, which causes the lower esophageal sphincter to malfunction and let the little acid that is left travel up into the esophagus, where it irritates the lining and can cause symptoms like you describe.

Might be worth looking into. A simple way to test this theory would be to get a "Betaine HCL with Pepsin" supplement and take it with meals to see if that helps. Do not try this if you have ulcers or other issues with the integrity of your stomach lining.

I only mention it because this approach cured my persistent heartburn and sore throat issues, after various PPIs worked for a bit and then failed. Conventional medicine is great, but why they continue to recommend PPIs for chronic GERD cases is a mystery to me. The stomach is meant to be acidic - the goal should not be to neutralize the acid.

Good luck!

I'll definitely consider this. It's bothered me for a while that the treatment for the heartburn is acid suppressants, but one of the few things that seems to be helpful is drinking lemonade.

Post nasal drip? That doesn't really narrow down the cause though. Could be allergies, deviated septum, viral infection, a whole host of things.

If it is post nasal drip, pseudoephedrine/Sudafed would clear it right up, if only for a few hours. I wouldn't recommend being on that long term, but it is probably worth an experiment.

You didn't say you saw a pulmonologist. I just read about a guy that discovered he had CF at 55 years old.

I haven't seen a pulmonologist. I have had two separate chest X-rays, but that's as far as examination of the lungs in specific has gone.

I'm not a doctor, there is an enzyme, bromelain (from pineapple seeds) which may help.. kind of making the phlegm more fluid.

But then, the phlegm could be a defense (mis)reaction to pollution or irritation by stuff you have accumulated in your sinuses - you may try to wash it (saline) and kill it (all bacteria whatever in layers, deep deep in, since years may be still there - kind of your suspended medical history).

I tried humming for a few minutes and it cleared some mucus. Running also does that but not rehydrating makes it worse. Hyperventilating by imitating Yoga breathing patterns also do. Allegedly singing clears sinuses. Is there any chance of an easy science-backed breathing activity in future?

Flush your sinuses with baby shampoo. It’s the only thing that has relieved the pressure long term for me.

https://www.bcm.edu/news/new-ways-to-flush-sinus-infection

Please take this as surprise and curiosity:

HOW IS THIS A THING??

Have you noticed any side effects? Do you have to use sterilized water? How do you do the actual flushing??

"There is a risk of infection if the water is not sterile or the device is not cleaned after use. If the device is used improperly this can be harmful.[4] In fact, proper application suggests the use of boiled water or saline water. In 2018, a patient was reported to have contracted Balamuthia mandrillaris after one month of using tap water filtered through a Brita water purifier for nasal irrigation.[5]

Rare cases of fatal naegleriasis have occurred due to nasal insufflation of the amoeba Naegleria fowleri (the "brain-eating amoeba") from untreated tap water. In 2011, two people died from Naegleria fowleri infections tied to using Neti pots containing tap water.[6]"

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Nasal_irrigation

It burns a bit the first time you do it.

But that pain gets easier with each flushing, which leads me to believe that the pain is a result of inflammation and not because of some set of vulnerable nerves that I'm agitating.

It genuinely helps. Do it for a few days consistently and watch your sinus pain diminish long-term.

Thank you for circling back on this.

It’s just stunning to me. I’m seriously considering trying it now.

One last thing, read this article about it:

https://omaha.com/livewellnebraska/how-i-beat-my-sinusitis-b...

"I didn't notice anything at first, but, gradually, my sinuses started popping, and mucus flowed down the back of my throat in big gushes. The baby shampoo broke through. I baby shampoo-ed my sinuses for a few more days, and now I feel better than I've felt in several years."

I had a similar experience in the beginning with a sort of "pop" while I was rinsing in the shower. I thought I had broken something. But I don't remember experiencing any facial pain after the "pop". It was quite possible that it was the sound of the biofilm breaking down? I don't know. But I have not experienced it since, and I've done many baby shampoo flushes since then.

I used to hum a lot when I had bad sinusitis or sinus headaches as I guess the head vibrations just feel soothing... I don't do it as much anymore as it's a good way to drive everyone else crazy.

I don't have papers handy but I've been using L. Sakei nasal probiotics to treat CRS quite effectively. Not quite cured yet after 5 days but much, much better.

Thanks for bringing this up, I've been wondering lately whether this is an avenue I could explore but it seems others are ahead of me! I already make my own sauerkraut but I'm going to try making kimchi, and I'll get hold of some of the probiotics too.

I found these articles on the subject with my first search and they're already opening my eyes:

- Loss of normal microbial diversity may be culprit behind chronic sinusitis https://www.news-medical.net/news/20120913/Loss-of-normal-mi...

- The Best Probiotic For Sinus Infections https://lactobacto.com/2018/11/05/the-best-probiotic-for-sin...

This article titled "New ways to flush out sinus infections" I found because of another comment but the doctor here also mentions bacterial balance:

> Current research in my field suggests this may be caused by the disruption of the natural bacterial habitat of the sinuses by the antibiotics, which is why more doctors are utilizing probiotics

https://www.bcm.edu/news/new-ways-to-flush-sinus-infection

Edit: formatting

I have a better explanation as a CRS sufferer. It is linked cortisol and stress and the humming soothes them.

Coming soon: a patent application on humming. I'm kidding! I hope...

Jalaneti (jala is water in Sanskrit, so water neti[1], it is a yoga practice) may help with sinus and other nasal congestion problems. It seems to, for me, anecdotally.

Standard disclaimer: not a doctor.

But I have been doing jalaneti for years, since my teens. First learned about it from a course at the Yoga Institute[2] of Santa Cruz, Mumbai, India.

After jalaneti the nasal passages feel very clean for sometime, and breathing is more free. You can do it once or twice a day. Used with caution, it is not dangerous for healthy adults.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neti_(Hatha_Yoga) You can ignore the clairvoyance claim.

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Yoga_Institute

https://theyogainstitute.org/

But what if the virus happens to like your humming?

I'm imagining a group of zen little viruses all sitting in lotus position.

Tangential joke I read somewhere, in an article about the history of computers:

Some spreadsheet software was named Buddha because it would assume the Lotus position. I thought I read it as Excel, but I searched, and found this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Software

See Section "Origins":

[ Mitch Kapor got the name for his company from 'The Lotus Position' or 'Padmasana'. Kapor used to be a teacher of Transcendental Meditation technique as taught by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Incidentally, competitor Borland code-named their Quattro Pro software "Buddha", as the software was meant to "assume the Lotus position" and take over Lotus 1-2-3's market. ]

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