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Comment by dheera | Hacker News Reader

"In the first stage of development, 12,000 people will work around the clock in three shifts."

Is this even legal in Germany, which is mostly devoid of 24-hour stores, where even supermarkets close on Sunday so those workers can have a life, and people seem to have a very strong sense of egalitarianism in labor standards? Also, I would have thought there to be more automation in an economy like Germany's and not people working around the clock.

I interned at a company in Germany before and my biggest takeaway was that everything was extremely high-efficiency and well-planned during work hours, and off hours were off hours, during which people enjoyed their lives.

It seems like a random American dude invaded and set up an sweatshop that is completely contradictory to the work-life balance and mental health standards that the rest of the country seems to have. I'd love to hear what Germans think of this.

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That's different. Shift work - also around the clock - is allowed, as long as the individual worker's rest times are respected. The point being that there are three shifts of each 8 hours, not one worker works 24 hours.

Sure, I get that, that's how 24 hour stores work as well, but they are almost nonexistent in Germany. I don't know if they are legally banned or whether it just culturally lacks a market, so I'm openly asking that question here to people who understand German labor laws.

The only overnight operations during my short time there I really saw were essential services such as in security, hospitals, and transportation industries.

Night shift workers do take a huge health hit, both physical and mental, and a social life hit, and I could see a government like Germany's putting some controls over night shifts for non-essential services, so wondering if that was the case or not.

You have to pay a premium for the night shifts, so no grocery store will support that (unless the owners work themselves or their families for submarket rates).

The premium for night shifts isn't what it once was, anymore. The fact that most groceries close 22:00 sharp just shows how insanely low their revenue is. Few exceptions exists in places where it makes sense volume-wise. 'Spätis' exist mostly in Berlin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sp%C3%A4tkauf I know of a few others in my town, where they are simply called 'Kiosk'.

Shift work is absolutely normal in all kinds of industry. There’s no rule against night shifts in general, however, there are limits on work duration (normally 8hours per day/40 hours per week) and breaks between shifts - at least 11 hours of downtime. It’s also normal that night/late shifts get extra pay. So it’s only really common in places where the capital expenditures for the machines are high enough to make that worthwhile - or for example in plants that cannot easily be shut down.

24 hour stores not being a thing is a separate issue: there are laws that regulate opening hours for stores and they generally do not allow for 24/7.

at least in austria it is. total weekly supermarket hours are limited unless for a special reason (in tourism villages or near transportation hubs (bus stations, train stations and the like)) and they can only be open between 5am and 9pm, though supermarkets can't do that as the total would be higher than allowed. where i live they open at 7:40am and close at 8pm mo-fri and 740 to 6 on saturday

We have gas/fuel stations for that. Meanwhile that turned into their main source of revenue/income above the sold fuel.

In germany there are laws regulating the opening hours of businesses such as grocery stores (and separate ones for restaurants). The previous federal law allows for opening between 6 until 20 on monday to saturday.

Since 2006 the states can overwrite this law locally and most did. But they are only allowed to open on at max 4 sundays each year. Many allow 0-24 but it's culturally barely used. Out of the shops i lived closed to only one even opened from 7 till 24, which was right next to the biggest student housing.

Besides that, there are additional costs for employees after midnight, so it is not very attractive to open for the stores at those times.

This is vastly different in industrial production factories where shifts covering the full day are much more common.

For opening hours see: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laden%C3%B6ffnungszeit#Regelun...

Three shifts means that a given worker works for 8 hours. It says nothing about how many days a week they work, or total hours worked in a week.

Not sure how this is incompatible with any of the stuff you mentioned. Someone can work 4x a week on the 6pm to 2am shift and still have all the things you mentioned.

> 4x a week on the 6pm to 2am shift

And who takes a massive quality-of-life hit for not being able to eat dinner with their family 4X per week, as well as a physical health hit for having to switch their sleep cycle so often. Per my other comment I was thinking that maybe the government had some controls over doing things like night shifts for non-essential work, but wasn't sure, and welcome insights from people who understand German labor laws about why Tesla's operation is OK but 24-hour stores are mostly nonexistent even though they would theoretically also operate by the same type of shift schedules.

In the US I am surrounded by 24-hour supermarkets and that's because the US government doesn't give a crap about the existence of night shifts for non-essential things, and I thought initially that the lack of 24-hour supermarkets in Germany was due to explicit regulation against that practice, but I may be mistaken.

I'm not working in the industry myself but rolling shifts are somewhat normal in big manufacturing companies. But if you do let your employees work for nights or weekends then they usually have to get paid premiums (simplified:25-40% more for night shifts, more for sundays and holidays).

> 25-40% more for night shifts, more for sundays and holidays

I see. So (assuming you're speaking from Germany) is this the reason why e.g. 24-hour supermarkets and convenience stores don't generally exist, but factories do? i.e. supermarkets would not be profitable to have night shifts with those massive overtime figures, but factories remain profitable despite that?

> 24-hour supermarkets and convenience stores

Different states have different laws regulating store opening times, these are independent of labour law.

Here's the overview of the different times for the states https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laden%C3%B6ffnungszeit#%C3%9Cb...

Absolutely legal. Night and sunday/holiday shifts get extra compensation, and there have to be at least 11h between shifts. This is nothing new in Germany, shift work is normal in a lot of fields.

> mostly devoid of 24-hour stores

Different laws regulate store opening times.

This isn't people working 24 hours a day, these are people working 8-hour shifts (day, swing, and night.) Just like every factory job.

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