The next US president won’t be great for H-1B visas
qz.com
qz.com
Set a cap on number of entrants, and then "auction" the slots. Adjust the cap on entrants annually. No showing of specific market need required, or educational background of the applicant. Just criminal background and health checks on the applicant.
The bid is the (gross) pay of the role with a minimum commit of 36 months. Winning bids are paid to the employee (i.e. as regular income) over the first 36 months or until their employment with the sponsor ends, whichever comes first. (The fee paid is de minimis, just what's required for processing.)
Employees who voluntarily quit or are terminated are free to take any other job paying at least what the sponsor's job paid, provided they do so within 3 months. The new employer does not need to bid or sponsor them. If the employee can't find a new role, they have to leave. In any case sponsor then pays the remaining bid/salary to the government over the remainder of the 36 month term.
After 5 years keeping your nose clean and remaining employed making more than the starting pay at entry, get a green card and eligibility to apply for naturalization.
At a stroke this would eliminate the abuses of H1-B - lowball salaries, exploitative conditions - and open a legitimate market for global talent. The sponsor has a strong incentive to vet the applicant and not abuse them, as they are on the hook for 3 years of comp whether or not they retain them.
Regulation has unintended consequences. As an example trying to save retails investors from fraud means IPOs are fewer and large investors get all the growth.
Not to make this political, but highly educated and highly paid “employees” voting for “career politicians” and “bureaucrats” seriously overestimate their understanding of issues and competence. They are missing data points and should lean to minimum regulation.
Recent changes asking H1 to be paid >40th percentile of salary instead of 17th percentile seems sensible and enough.
Are you admitting that you want to hire H1B in order to find cheaper people?
If you can't find any local people to employ, then either you put your hand in your pocket to afford international or you can't afford to do business and your business model is broken.
I’m hiring an H1B since that person has the right skills, and I’m hiring Americans as well (who might take lower salary and stock options initially). Putting something like auction for H1B means another competitive advantage to big tech over me.
>> Business model is broken
For startups, yes you’re working with constraints that seem impossible - you should encourage people to do hard things and build businesses, not give up - this is still US.
And yes I hired 10 engineers in India, and they’re paying taxes there. I’d rather hire them here and have them pay taxes here. In next few years, the founding engineers will start their own startups in India and not here, I want them to do startups here.
We’re screwing up by reducing supply of engineers, reducing supply of housing in US, and starving startup ecosystem.
We could make the same arguments to argue for startups not having to follow health and safety law because it makes it harder to be profitable.
Are you asking me if I know how hard it is to run a business while following the law? I'm sure it is. Do you think that absolves you from following it?
Also, if all businesses were required to be profitable from day 1, you’d have none. You spend on R&D to build a product, then sell it, then make money.
You know nothing jon snow
You’re not asking to change it - you’re asking to completely misappropriate it to undermine local labour prices, when its intention as created by the people is to bring in specialists that can’t be found in the US.
Business model doesn't have to work initially. Facebook didn't have one for a long time.
- Non tech professions also hire people on H1Bs and don't pay as well as FAANG-likes do.
- Wages are generally lower in non bay area locations. Employers in low COL areas might lose out to those in high COL areas.
> Employees who voluntarily quit or are terminated are free to take any other job paying at least what the sponsor's job paid, provided they do so within 3 months.
3 months is generally not enough time to find a new job, finish immigration transfer formalities. This small duration to find a new job also leads to a lot of scams to maintain status.
Maybe it's time to start valuing employees on the value they add instead of some arbitrary rent price! The talent is global after all.
I personally like that world; but I doubt the companies would. They’d rather just pay more salary to balance out the high rents, so people keep swarming to its location.
In both cases, the obvious response is that they need to pony up, lose out, or find a way forward that's not an H1B. This strikes me as an intended result of this approach, not some accidental side-effect.
Well what is the goal of immigration? Having more immigrants in high COL areas would maximize taxes paid by immigrants, which seems like one reasonable goal.
My point is that the ‘simply auction it off’ approach is bad.
[edit: typo]
In practice, I suppose somebody with that kind of money has other options. Still the proposal seems open to abuse.
This is how labor was brought in from Africa not too long ago. I agree a market solution is probably the least unfair one. But, as a country, America should not make the same past, historical mistakes.
I went to Carnegie Mellon and met some of the smartest people there and it crushed my heart seeing some super talented people lose on the lottery several times and be forced to go back home when they already had an employer in the US paying them 100k+ and willing to go great lengths to keep them.
I was lucky enough to get a visa in my first lottery draw, but that was the only reason I got to do what others couldn’t. Luck.
They lost against those consulting companies that exploited the program with impunity for years.
So the QZ article author here is wrong. Whoever is the next US president, this is the best thing that could have happened to the H1-B program.
You may want to argue that "well then other companies don't deserve them if they can't compete with FAANG", or "then companies should pay SF wages everywhere" (which I sorta-agree with), or "then other industries should pay more!".
They may be valid points, but it is unreasonable to expect that another industry can compete salary-wise against FAANG at the moment, and it doesn't make their inability to find candidates locally any less true.
Regarding preventing visa farming, an easier solution (in my opinion) is to improve the flexibility for an H1B worker; allow them to work for any employer for the term of their status.
If an employer used an H1B in order to hire a foreign worker and then under pay them, the worker would just get another job that pays market rate, without the work status concern. Without the artificial control over the employee, H1B harvesting wouldn't be worth it.
Even if they stopped doing stock buy-backs?
Because further narrowing the firms that benefit would have the effect of narrowing political support for the industrial subsidy represented by the H-1B, so the longer-term interests of those who would have a short-term benefit by such a narrowing are served by sacrificing that benefit to shore up support for the benefit they derive even with the visas less concentrated in their hands.
Only economic demand. Not demand in the more common meaning as need.
See the other comment about H-1Bs being for nurses too.
They aren't going to be offered FAANG salaries but that doesn't mean the country doesn't need nurses.
It means there isn't enough money in the part of the system that pays for nurses to compete with FAANG salaries to get them (and all the consequences of that, such as having to pay all other nurses FAANG salaries as well).
If you followed the chain I guess you could argue that the economic demand for advertising is higher than economic demand for healthcare, like it or not. But that would be a really screwed up way of assessing the best way to assign H-1B visas for the benefit of the country.
It's not, though. Median rent in Mountain View (significantly pricier than San Jose) is now $2390/month [1]. L4 total comp at Google, or E4 salaries at Facebook, is about $260K/year [2]. Average rent for a 1BR in Dallas is $1250/month [3]. Average total comp for a software engineer in Dallas is $110K/year. [4]
After taxes and rent, the Facebook/Google L4 is making $260K * (1 - 0.37 [5]) - 2390 * 12 = $135920/year. The Dallas SWE is making $110K * (1 - 0.16 [6]) - 1250 * 12 = $68939/year. Even with the $4K/month rents from 2019, the Facebook engineer is still putting away $116K/year, more than the total gross of the Dallas engineer.
People tend to underestimate the effect of the top-line on finances and savings. Eric Schmidt had a saying: "More revenue solves all known problems". It applies as much to households as to giant companies.
[1] https://www.zumper.com/rent-research/mountain-view-ca
[3] https://www.zumper.com/rent-research/dallas-tx
[4] https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries/Dal...
[5] https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator#vyY8q...
[6] https://smartasset.com/taxes/texas-tax-calculator#s0LEbwxtAs
You're using average (median I hope) salary for Dallas vs. high end salaries for San Jose.
You used indeed.com for the Dallas salaries, if you use them for San Jose you get an average of 150K. Too lazy to run the numbers but obviously that would change the calculation quite a bit.
Compare Facebook salaries in San Jose to Facebook salaries in Dallas, that would be a fair comparison. Compare median salaries in San Jose to median salaries in Dallas, that would be a fair comparison.
Compare Facebook salaries in San Jose to median salaries in Dallas, that is not a fair comparison and you know that, you are wasting my time by making me type it out for you, you know full well that that is not a fair comparison.
Sadly it has been aggressively abused by some companies to bring cheap labor into the US, actually undermining the local skilled labor system (eg why bother training Americans).
H1-B does indeed need reform, and that does mean an end to the 'good old days' (good for who, though).
All IMHO - I'm not even American, or Indian.
The current administration tried using executive action and regulatory approaches to fulfil their agenda and both keep getting struck down in courts. The new upward revision in wage levels are also expected to have the same fate. There is simply very little regulatory leeway on H1B visas since they are encoded in law.
It is highly unlikely for a democratic administration to spend political capital changing H1B when they have bigger priorities (healthcare).
At the end of the day, Indians are the only affected population on H1B due to backlogs and aren't a strategic voting bloc for democrats. Everyone else gets a green card in a couple of years anyways. They are more focused on undocumented and family based immigration.
A broken immigration system and the H1B status quo is expected to last for a while unless there are external factors (collapse in international student numbers, US emigration, US companies moving jobs out of the country) forcing action.
That’s not accurate. The original law in the 1960s was designed to be very different, and one of the basic bargains was that it wouldn’t increase net immigration. That ended up being false because Presidents ended up using executive action and regulations to depart from the original design. For example, Clinton narrowing the public charge exclusion to refer to only cash welfare. Indeed, the H1-B system was never intended to be a vehicle for permanent immigration. That was created by administrative fiat too. Trump’s administrative changes were to make the system more consistent with what the law actually says.
What? That was an act of Congress.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1990#Non-im...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1990#Job-ba...
H1B changes were not implemented by administrative fiat. The AC21 act was passed to provide unlimited H1B extensions with an approved employment-based immigration application.
Under the 1990 dual intent system, you basically say “for now I want to just work temporarily, but if a spot opens up I might be interested in staying.” In theory, the government should be able to say: “okay, well, no green cards for the foreseeable future” and H1-Bs would say “okay, I’ll wait for a spot to open up” or “okay, I’ll go home.”
But of course that’s not what happens: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/us/politics/coronavirus-t.... People flip out because they (for obvious reasons) view the H1-B as the first step to a more or less guaranteed path to permanent residency and citizenship.
The current immigration system is a complete clusterf—-ck. It’s not fair to voters, who have the right to have an immigration policy that actually reflects what Congress enacted. It’s also not fair to “guest workers” who get stuck in a precarious limbo.
If you're going to develop talent you should develop local talent. The deal is that you give foreigners the opportunity because they offer valuable skills.
How is it possible that 85K non immigrants with no rights are blamed for decimation of entire tech sectors.
For comparison , the US allows one million immigrants (green card holders ) every year into the United States . Most of these immigrants come over in the family based immigration category. They are free to take any job, start any business and do any legal activity as US citizens.
Yet it is the H-1B visa holders that are blamed for lowering of wages in the tech and engineering sectors and we spend a lot of political energy to make life difficult for them.
Also whenever articles related to H-1B are posted, the most upvoted comments are usually comments that point to gross changes to the H-1B program. Those are just pipe dreams. There has been no meaningful legislation changes to H-1B program in over two decades and I don’t think that there is political capital to make those changes .
You can't target family based immigrants because their families might already have been naturalized and have voting powers. The family GC recipients would also eventually get naturalized, and you don't want to upset potential voter base (however, tiny it might be).
> There has been no meaningful legislation changes to H-1B program in over two decades and I don’t think that there is political capital to make those changes .
This makes it even better. You get to throw punches which makes you look tough, but also doesn't really hurt the other side. Sort of win-win. Although I do think the other side in this is the H1B sponsoring employers and not the folks actually on H1B.
It’s a topic that never fails to provoke. I also wonder if it’s a different set of commenters each time..
Constituent - “ any of the voters who elect a person to represent them.”
H1B are not US citizens, and politicians considering them their “constituents” are misrepresenting their true constituents interests.
For certain policy aspects, such as national security and defense, it absolutely makes sense to actively exclude and ignore the concerns of non-citizens. They are really not 'true constituents'. But for most other things, the person who's considered a constituent is a law-abiding, tax-paying person, not a persona non-grata (that would be the illegal immigrants aka 'undocumented immigrants' whose cause is taken up with gusto by both political parties); it is absolutely the responsibility of the elected representative to pay attention to his concerns.
Same with prisoners being not allowed to vote.
How can you have a representative democracy where only some of the people are represented, and laws are made that determine who goes to prison for political reasons (such as using cannabis for example)?
The Brexit vote in the UK is a great example of this injustice. It is often cited as 52% voted for Brexit.
But the people most affected are the residents from EU countries other than the UK. They are of all ages, and have been told, some their entire lives, that they have the same effective status as UK citizens in virtually every way.
Unlike most systems, the EU-UK system did not require visas, documentation, or place restrictions on people. They were allowed to do virtually everything any citizen can do, and advised in effect that converting to actual UK citizenship is a pointless formality, which even the UK state would not encourage. In effect they were "virtual citizens" already. Many are part of multi-generation families in the UK by now.
And then a decision which affects them most of all is passed without their input.
There are millions of them. About 5.5% of the entire UK population. If they had been asked, there is no doubt from the numbers that the result would have gone decisively the other way.
A prime example of "taxation without representation" and all the other things like that.
On top of that, another group very much affected: UK citizens living in the EU. Some of those retired are now in difficult circumstances, as they lose rights where they are settled, and can't really come back to the UK either. Those living there long-term were not allowed to vote on the issue even though it severely affects them; that number is about 1% of the UK population.
A prime example of "screwed without representation".
This is actually acutely important to both the history of the United States of America and to a grasp of how a representative democracy (if the US is to remain one) works
So, let's go back to the mid-18th century. America is a colony. The colonists are unhappy because they feel unrepresented, but in Westminster, London, the Members of Parliament are content that indeed those colonists are represented - by them - even though the colonists don't get a vote. This concept is named "virtual representation" and we'll return to it. The colonists oppose it, "No taxation without representation" they cry.
It is worth taking a moment here to consider that those Members were not elected by the majority of the people in the districts they were elected to. Only wealthy men in England could vote at that time, a tiny fraction of the population who'd be affected by the Parliament's decisions. This is also prior to Great Reform, so the districts represented do not closely resemble one another in population (though next century things would get much worse before they got better)
So, the Americans revolt, and having won their independence they set up for themselves a new system of government. In many ways this system is reminiscent of the one they've just got rid of, except that (no surprises) the rich old white men who didn't like the old system are instead placed in charge of the new one. In particular, the United States of America does not in fact enfranchise all its citizens, it actually only gives the vote to wealthy men, almost exactly the same as England had done. Still, they now feel represented (and indeed have become important political figures in their new country) and so for them it seems mission accomplished.
The US Congress offers exactly the same weak rationale as the English parliament, virtual representation. Sure, women, the poor, slaves, children and so on are not allowed to vote but we promise your Congress people are representing you anyway.
And so that's the status quo. Either you aren't really a representative democracy, with your millions who are disenfranchised for various reasons†, or you accept that representation is necessarily distinct from enfranchisement - the right to vote.
† In both England and the US the franchise was greatly expanded, to include more men, and eventually women, but although such expansions are almost invariably described as "universal" by their proponents in both countries many people can't vote, and neither is close to even achieving the more reasonable standard of allowing everybody who can meaningfully express an opinion (which would rule out newborns for example) the vote. Not least both prevent people from voting if they are in prison, as if somehow prison reform wouldn't be a very significant issue those people might now have more insight into than other voters...
The US is EXTREMELY happy to collect taxes from people around the world and to call them resident aliens for tax purposes if they stay in the country for more than half a year or a given combination of days in the preceding 4-5 years.
So many people believe non-citizens don't pay taxes. So many people believe non-citizens are undocumented, not allowed to work legally, etc.
The vast majority of non-citizens who work pay taxes the same as citizens, everywhere in the world as far as I know.
They often pay the state more than citizens (because of various substantial fees, every year in some countries), while receiving less for it.
It breaks my heart, to think anti-immigrant sentiments may be helped along by such misguided beliefs.
Of course, being a US citizen it's a little bit different, you have to declare and sometimes pay the taxes in different countries.
How does not having citizenship make it harder to pay taxes?
I'm in favor of a much fairer immigration program (starting with not tying a visa-holder to an employer), and H1-Bs in their current form are not it.
A grad from a second tier "technical college" in India with a visa refusal rate of ~90% for a job doing manual UI testing and QA for a body shop
my only path forward is H1. They'll both be listed as "computer related occupations" and apply for the same visa in the same quota. Does that makes any sense to anyone?
Besides clear political positions, there are differences in diversity, including a woman on the ticket.
Cast your vote!
No. H1B is a skills based visa and not diversity/family based. The only thing that should matter are the skills and not the country they come from. Steps should absolutely be taken to ensure the system can't be gamed and that only well qualified applicants get selected.
It would if that's where most of the people with both skills and the view that the US is a better place to sell them than where they currently live are.
Skills being the only thing that matter on the US side doesn't stop other factors from mattering on the other side.
That's not really true. Skills the same, you would still see more people from SEA, Africa immigrating to the US than say people from EU, Australia, Canada. Most qualified people in developed countries can get the same or better standard of living staying in their home countries than people from countries like India.