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Comment by roel_v | Hacker News Reader

It's been a while since there have been posts on Supermemo here (meta: I miss the times when HN was mostly about bootstrapping software businesses, nootropics and self hacking), so I'm wondering - are there people who (still) use Supermemo or similar software for actual learning, and not memorizing for its own sake, as a party trick basically (which I feel is its main use case, at least in the way it's in the news)? Are there any advances in this field, new methods, new implementations of existing methods?

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Yeah, the Discord SuperMemo community has grown actually a fair bit over the last year: https://discord.gg/vUQhqCT

I myself only started using SuperMemo over the last 2 years but I think in the last 1, I've seen lots of friends get massively better and I'm looking forward to what we create over the next 5 years.

In terms of new implementations, one thing I'm excited about is dendro: https://dendro.com.au/.

It's made by a long-term supermemo user and some other friends and I think is the best shot at a modern incremental reading alternative to SuperMemo. It's missing lots of features and is aimed at bring IR to the masses rather than power users but I personally like it and find it good enough to use on my phone when I'm on the go.

I guess I'll take this as a chance, for anyone not knowing SuperMemo: this video introduces basics of IR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NURjZuHvDaU

to actually try supermemo, you can get sm15 full for free or sm18 as a trial: https://supermemo.wiki/learn/#/

Thanks for the video. The example he gave was a wizard learning spells, where each spell was a pretty independent unit of collection of facts.

What I fail to see is how this would work with scientific articles — reviewing independent sections from articles without the larger context is often useless (or at least far less useful).

Is there an example of this?

Do you have an example article? Would be easier to give some concrete advice with that since I'm not 100% sure what you mean by scientific articles (which I personally find fine. I do not find scientific papers so fine though).

I'm curious what you've seen in your friends that would make them seem massively better. I've thought of trying out supermemo, so I'd like to hear how it's helped you.

Ah, when I said massively better I was mainly referring to in terms of SuperMemo skill. I started talking a lot to them around February which is also when we all started to improve but I didn't know them well enough last year to be able to do a before/after comparison.

I can comment on myself though. I'm very low conscientiousness/have ADHD (without conscientiousness issues I'd probably have gotten 3-4 times as much done as I otherwise have). Around 2 years ago, and much of last year, I was pretty miserable. It's hard to say exactly what my thought process was back then (since I think differently now) but I got stressed very easily, could not message people without bad anxiety/overthinking, was in poor fitness, got little done, etc. etc..

I'm not sure what percentage of it I can attribute to supermemo (since you can't tell where memories come from) and I still struggle a fair bit but I've been able to get significantly better at managing stress sanely, not stress about talking to people so much, improve fitness and other lifestyle changes. A lot of these seem like they'd be things you just sort of do build but for the stress stuff in particular, I think I've been influenced heavily by stuff I've learned (though a big part of that influence also comes from creator of supermemo himself, both over email and from supermemo.guru). If I get back to incremental writing, I think you'd be able to see some of the benefits I've had in terms of creativity. Some days I can't sleep because there are just too many ideas popping up to be written down. Unfortunately I haven't gotten into the habit yet though I plan to establish a few other baser habits (like better sleep, ironically) and after to move back to it.

If you want to hear a miracle story where I started using supermemo and then wrote 10 research papers and completed lots of huge projects, you won't find that with me (I think 5-10 years from now you might). I don't regret it all though because the delta from where I started and to where I am now is huge (though it's hard to feel it day to day because of hedonic treadmill).

I would note, if you do try SuperMemo, maintain skepticism. One mistake I made especially when I first started is just importing neat things and memorizing them, without thinking about application. I'm certain that there are users at least 3x better than me, entirely because they're good at being selective/have more base knowledge so they can get rid of more overlapping inputs.

The SuperMemo algorithms [1] have been re-implemented in more modern software such as Anki [2]. These systems are popular for goal oriented learning like studying for a test or learning a new language.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperMemo#Algorithms

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anki_(software)

Anki's SRS algotihm is based on SM2 and is woefully outdated in comparison to SM's SRS algo.

Additionally SM is much more feature rich once you get into incremental reading and fully optimizing your learning experience.

Sure the UI isn't a nice flashy Electron.js app, but SM is a titan compared the terminate that is Anki.

I was thinking of platform support [1]:

> The method is available as a computer program for Windows, Windows CE, Windows Mobile, (Pocket PC), Palm OS (PalmPilot), etc.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperMemo

Yeah, that's definitely a problem. I will say though, if you use a VM you can get a not too bad experience on both mac and linux (I've tried both and found it usable enough for daily use).

outdated doesn't mean ineffective.

Anki is also free, and with a pretty big community behind it.

So, SRS algorithms are such that the more you try to get the optimality, the more the returns diminish because there's significant variability in the human population (bias-variance tradeoff sort of applies). The Ebbinghaus curve itself is a very crude approximation.

See this:

https://languagelearning.stackexchange.com/questions/3757/wh...

(I'm a language learner and an active user of SRS)

The notion of an outdated algorithm corresponding to worse or better results to me is neither here nor there. There's evidence that the repetition interval itself is not the critical factor in retention. Empirically we know there are things that we remember with 0 repetitions (the vivid details of a traumatic event), while other things we struggle to remember even with SRS when there's no emotional connection to what is being memorized.

When you're doing self-hacking, you have to understand you're working on a highly variable, complex adaptive system that defies optimality and exactness. Much of what is known are approximations.

I’m in strong agreement with your points. It always surprises me when I read people trying to come up with a more optimal algorithm for testing one’s retention when there are so many factors out of one’s control that would influence the forgetting curve. For instance, the notion of judging your ability to recall something and providing it as input to Anki is such a gross approximation. Choosing the wrong value from 1 to 5 would affect your recall schedule considerably.

In my opinion, what’s more important to a recall strategy is just pure habit. You have to practice regularly, and anything that makes the software easier to use for the long term is something that would have a greater effect than the optimality of the recall algorithm. (Incidentally this is why I’m working on a flash card app that is easier to use, to help ensure one comes back to it regularly.)

Have you tried SuperMemo? Intervals matter because they correlate with rep loads. The more accurate the intervals, the lower daily rep loads can be.

The SuperMemo creator has spent 3 decades and collected plenty of data, it's hard to imagine that he wouldn't be able to improve on an algorithm from 1990.

I admit I have not.

SRS isn't my main method for learning -- I use a variety of other methods. I only use SRS for (independent and disconnected) atomic-type knowledge that I need to drill. My rep loads are generally not onerous, so it's not a problem that necessarily affects me too much.

(Example: I learn through cognitive dissonance so I use it primarily to deprogram certain associations in my head. For instance, the word "oficina" looks like "office" to my English brain, but the word actually means "mechanic's workshop" in Portuguese. Or "pretender", which looks like pretend in English, actually means "intend". SRS helps me drill the Portuguese meaning into my skull. I use SRS to memorize bits of knowledge that don't fit anywhere and that are hard to create a context for.)

I have looked into SuperMemo in the past because I was attracted to the prospect of a general pro-level memorization tool. I use complex pro tools all the time and was not fazed by the learning curve, but I felt the UI was, let's say, overfitted to the creator's personal preferences.

It was a purely emotional decision but I knew I wouldn't use it regularly, and the best SRS tool is one that one would use over one that one would not.

> SRS isn't my main method for learning -- I use a variety of other methods. I only use SRS for (independent and disconnected) atomic-type knowledge that I need to drill. My rep loads are generally not onerous, so it's not a problem that necessarily affects me too much.

Agree. Also agree that actually using something is more important than how good it is. I just strongly object to:

>outdated algorithm corresponding to worse or better results to me is neither here nor there. There's evidence that the repetition interval itself is not the critical factor in retention.

claiming that algorithm does not matter, especially from people without experience actually using both.

>(Example: I learn through cognitive dissonance so I use it primarily to deprogram certain associations in my head. For instance, the word "oficina" looks like "office" to my English brain, but the word actually means "mechanic's workshop" in Portuguese. Or "pretender", which looks like pretend in English, actually means "intend". SRS helps me drill the Portuguese meaning into my skull. I use SRS to memorize bits of knowledge that don't fit anywhere and that are hard to create a context for.)

you look to be describing exactly interference: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Interference you might find 20 rules article useful for it: https://www.supermemo.com/en/archives1990-2015/articles/20ru...

>I have looked into SuperMemo in the past because I was attracted to the prospect of a general pro-level memorization tool. I use complex pro tools all the time and was not fazed by the learning curve, but I felt the UI was, let's say, overfitted to the creator's personal preferences. It was a purely emotional decision but I knew I wouldn't use it regularly, and the best SRS tool is one that one would use over one that one would not.

That is understandable. I will say: I personally like the interface. To anyone reading this, I might seem insane but for a high-level user it just clicks and works (with few quirks here and there). Likely because I lack imagination I can't imagine how I'd make it look nicer while still maximizing usability.

It is of course terrible to share with newcomers. But I've taught many people SuperMemo, I think the main issue with the UI for most people is just that you don't understand it. Once you get over that I think it's not so bad.

> claiming that algorithm does not matter, especially from people without experience actually using both.

Here's the basis of that claim [1].

That said, I have not tested it empirically myself so I think that is cause for moderating my claim -- I place a high value on empirically-tested knowledge. Take my claim as partially withdrawn.

But to make the argument more precise, an algorithm producing a lower rep load because it uses intervals more efficiently does not imply it produces a significant delta-difference in retention. It merely means the algorithm lets you fit more stuff into a memorization schedule. That seems to be to be quite different from improving retention itself of say a smaller inventory of facts. Just wanted to be sure about the actual claim that is made.

p.s. one of your links is broken.

[1] http://learninglab.psych.purdue.edu/downloads/2011_Karpicke_...

> Here's the basis of that claim [1].

Based on a skim of the paper, this experiment seems to only plan out how individuals study material on the same day, not distributed over a period of time that lasts multiple days.

In order to test how much of the material was retained in long-term memory, they tested the subjects on the material again after one week.

Spaced Repetition software (anki, mnemosyne, and supermemo) will distribute the learning across multiple days regardless of the algorithm they use. I don't believe the paper cited is using the same testing method that SRS systems use.

Piotr Wozniak (the creator of Supermemo) has collaborated on a couple of papers regarding this topic. I have not found many researchers who are studying it and creating algorithms in quite the same way.

There are a few papers cited in a blog post / self-published supermemo wiki here [1] that discuss a proposed two-component model of memory that explain in greater detail why learning on increasing intervals of time (days, not in the structure of repetitions on the same day) can lead to a higher stability of memory.

[1] https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Two_components_of_memory

Looks like SuperMemo is windows only which is a deal-breaker for me.

scroll to the bottom of supermemo.wiki/learn, there are some suggestions on using it on non-windows platforms

I would note that modern here should be taken to mean in interface alone. SuperMemo is still actively being worked on and looks like it will continue being worked on and improved for the foreseeable feature.

Yes. Check out this article that is half an essay on quantum computing and half a call to action for using spaced repetition (the main idea behind supermemo) as a new medium for learning.

https://quantum.country/

I would disagree :) I think the main idea of SuperMemo (now) is actually incremental reading: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Incremental_reading though it is nowhere near as popular as spaced repetition. I think we'll see more alternate implementations of IR pop up over the next few years.

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