If I could be fully remote and work part time, I would consider eventually rejoining Microsoft. There is a lot of hand-wringing over how fully remote workers get left behind but I've never been interested in moving beyond an IC level.
If I could be fully remote and work part time, I would consider eventually rejoining Microsoft. There is a lot of hand-wringing over how fully remote workers get left behind but I've never been interested in moving beyond an IC level.
This (and to be honest also fiscal policy) has resulted in the largest part-time workforce in the world. In Dutch e-mail it's very common to find the days people work in the signature at the bottom.
Even though it's not mandatory most people will start by taking Wednesday and/or Friday off. So over time the work culture here became to plan meetings on Mo-Tue-Thu, along with drinks on Thursdays in stead of Fridays. As someone who works 40h still this is such a net-positive for me as well, I love that people don't really plan meetings on Wednesday and Fridays and you can just work.
73% of all women work part-time, as do 23% of the men. Only half of all working Dutch people work fulltime.
Part-time is anything between 12h and 32h a week.
I hope this would become the norm everywhere as it truly frees up everyone to suit their needs.
Traditional family values still resonate in these numbers and many people blame women working part-time for a gender imbalance at the top of companies.
So that gender imbalance is definitely on the agenda. Whether you think these numbers are concerning depends on your political stance.
It seems unless you have some data showing their preference is to work more but they are limited by something externally forced on them, and you’d need data not opinion, you shouldn’t be concern-trolling.
Women buy more dresses than men, is this a concern we should address?
So if you're going on the data at least as far as I know it, this should be a good sign.
I know my wife certainly feels that way.
They can. They are to me.
But do they prefer it more than men? Maybe we should be more careful about this assumption.
I am a man, and I would prefer to work less hours. Unfortunately, my options are mostly limited to full-time or nothing.
Here is how it works: suppose that both me and my wife are at a job interview, and we both say that we want a part-time job. The obvious question is "why?"
If either of us answers honestly: "because I have life and hobbies and friends, and half of the market salary for my skill range is enough to pay my bills, so I see no reason to spend most of my awake time in an office", with such attitude we are obviously not going to get the job. You are supposed to pretend that working to make someone else even richer is the highest calling in your life, more important than your family or friends or dreams or whatever, not just something you have to do to pay your bills.
Luckily, my wife has a socially acceptable excuse. I don't. Therefore, she will get the part-time job, and I will get the choice to either work full-time or try my luck elsewhere. This is not about our preferences. This is about what is socially acceptable for each of us.
In the past I tried repeatedly to get a part-time job, but it was nearly impossible. (The best deal I got was working 4 days a week for 50% of my market salary. Even that was a rare exception.) When I respond to job offers mentioning "both full-time and part-time positions available" and I mention I am interested in the part-time one, I am usually told that those are only meant for women.
So I keep working full-time, because that's the only option I got. And now people will use my "revealed preference" as a proof that this is what I really wanted. Eh.
Is this the US?
If so: Isn't this a full-on gender discrimination lawsuit waiting to happen under Title IX?
No.
I'm sure there are many reasons men are this as a problem, because there are many men. Just pointing out that it doesn't have to be some misguided savior complex.
Does the reduction have to be in blocks of days? or can you just work, say, 5 hours a day instead of 8 ?
It's also very common to stack hours. A lot of people will work 36 hours. But since 'half days' means you have to commute anyway people usually just take every other Friday off. The only exception to this is Wednesday, when some people work half days because Dutch primary schools are often half-day as well on Wednesday.
But I don't think that's the law, just what people prefer.
I know very few people who reduce theirs hours per day but still choose to commute 5 days a week.
But I guess that might very well change now that a lot of people don't have a commute anymore.
But this doesn't mean you are idle the rest of the time. It means you can pursue what you love. We place way to much value in jobs as an end rather than as a mean to an end IMO. I tend to believe that the work week should have been reduced decades ago.
The irony is the replier was 10 years older than me. So the age discrimination bias is so prevalent even older people buy into it.
However, there are plenty of people around me who are in the 40-60 age bracket, who work in tech, are financially comfortable (even though they do not get FAANG-type salaries), do not work crazy hours and (at least pre-COVID) had no problem changing jobs if the current one became toxic or boring. My 2c.
Are you denying the existence of rampant age discrimination in tech, which has been highlighted countless times by many people? Otherwise, I'm not sure what the comment was intending.
> there are plenty of people around me
There's a bit of survivorship bias there. The older people driven out of tech may be invisible to you.
https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#developer-pro...
Only 17% of professional developers surveyed were age 40+. That vastly disproportionate with the age demographics of the overall human population.
Whereas [1] says among job board postings, C++ is about as popular as JS, and Java is 1.7x more popular than JS.
Perhaps the holders of StackOverflow accounts aren't representative of the profession as a whole? I could certainly believe people who were programming professionally before SO existed, and who have decades of experience, would have gotten good at solving problems without asking for help.
[1] https://www.codingdojo.com/blog/the-7-most-in-demand-program...
I think it's questionable whether job posting are more representative of working programmers. Arguably they're less representative. Job postings are unfilled jobs, so technically they represent exactly zero programmers. And many job postings are never filled.
> Perhaps the holders of StackOverflow accounts aren't representative of the profession as a whole?
Agreed, but unfortunately I can't think of a better source of data offhand.
> I could certainly believe people who were programming professionally before SO existed, and who have decades of experience, would have gotten good at solving problems without asking for help.
I don't agree with the assumptions here. As an experienced developer, I ask for help all the time. I'm not an expert on every possible subject, and anyway, tech changes. Also, not everyone on Stack Overflow is asking for help. Some have to be offering help, otherwise nobody would go there.
What's the sampling bias of this survey? How many pro developers over 40 were contacted for the survey but did not respond? Is StackOverflow usage higher among people aged 20-39 compared to 40-59, all else being equal?
I don't see anything alarming here. I am a 40+ year old developer, and I've never seen anyone my age leave the industry because they were victims of age discrimination. The opposite in fact. I have never had so much clout during job hunting than I do now, with 20 years of on the job experience. Anecdata sure, but that survey is not sound, and it does not attempt to discover whether older developers are actually unable to find work, or what other factors (other than the obvious massive industry growth) might contribute to the imbalance.
I'd say if management routinely burns out programmers and prevents them from having long careers, that in itself is a form of age discrimination.
> If the industry now is 10x the size it was in 2000 (arbitrary number), then 40 year old developers should be 10% of the workforce, even discounting any other factors.
IMO this seems to be an ageist assumption. If an industry is growing, why should the newcomers to the industry be overwhelmingly young? Why shouldn't "older" people join in large numbers too, especially if there's a lot of money to be made? I personally switched careers and didn't get my first tech job until I was over 35.
> I have never had so much clout during job hunting than I do now, with 20 years of on the job experience.
What do you make of the pervasive "quiz show" style job interviews that favor recent CS grads and discount job experience?
In any case, I'd say there's more empirical support for my position than the claim I was arguing against, that people work 80 hours per week and then retire early because they "value their time". Just not their current time, only their time later in life (if they live that long), I guess.
It's not management though that may be a part. Building complex systems with cutting (i.e., bleeding) edge technology is hard. A lot of projects fail, often with career consequences for the people in them. If you experience 2-3 of these you start to look around to see if there's an easier way to make a living.
My interpretation was that ptero meant "I don't see my peers working 80 hours a week, with the aim of getting rich and retiring early"
If you are at a FAANG company and working 80 hours a week, you're earning the same compensation as you would if you were working 40 hours a week. It's not like you're going to get richer working 80 hours. Come review time, nobody looks and says, "oh hey, you worked lots and lots of hours. You get a promotion!" It makes no sense.
Now if you owned 10% of your startup and those 40 extra hours meant the difference between a big exit and running out of runway, that makes more sense.
I like software development, but I don't think I'm cut out for it in a SV work hard/play hard sense because I like to tinker too much. That's just not a good fit for deadlines, production environments, etc.
It's given me a lot less stress professionally which has allowed me to work on personal projects (software and otherwise).
In the past few months - Started learning about worm composting and I've been raising e. fetida worms to compost trash. - Started reorganizing my homelab and messing with all my server equipment - Learning about different machining techniques - Working on my cars more, and I hope to take on an EV conversion of an old car soon.
I’m asking because I’m interested in support roles as well. What’s the company and name of the position?
I keep my skills up and could still pass your company's C++ interview, but honestly I don't really want to.
It's not about valuing it, the problem is that finding jobs which allow part-time work is just about impossible. I'd give anything for a job where I can work 40% time for 40% salary, but those don't exist.
My wife has managed to arrange 80% time for 80% pay at the G of FAANG for a couple years, but the company absolutely hates the arrangement and tries every opportunity to sabotage it so it's not that great. Also, management demands 40 hours of work for that 80% pay with the explanation that full-time employees are expected to work for a lot more than 40 hours.
EDIT: I have a family like most people.
EDIT2: I'm thinking about how insurance isn't as expensive as giving up more than that in salary, but maybe I need the security of steady work on the resume, sick leave and a job to lean on if things get tough.
Nothing crystalizes support for medicare-for-all faster than ten seconds looking at the public health insurance marketplace.
b) Your cost isn't actually $100. Your cost at the point of service is $100 but you're paying more taxes which subsidize your healthcare (among other things).
edit: And before some snarky jerk tries to score some cheap virtue points by saying something to the tune of "well I am perfectly ok paying more taxes for healthcare". I was deliberately avoiding making a value judgement one way of the other and simply explaining why his bill at the point of service is lower.
I have lived and worked in many cities in the US as well as a couple of central European countries. Once you get into a high salary range the taxes aren't much different. The exception being if you have a bunch of kids then you will pay lower taxes in the US. However, you will also have increased costs including medical for the kids.
The United States propaganda is that we are capitalistic, when most of my money isn't controlled by me.
But why is healthcare bought individually more expensive than healthcare an employer buys for all their employees?
One is real and one is hidden.
The hidden price difference is that most employees think they pay $200 per month in health insurance, but actually their employer is paying $600 and chips in $400 so the employee only pays $200. And of course, $200 taken out of a paycheck before you receive it doesn't feel as bad as a monthly $200 charge to your credit card.
The other reason is adverse selection: When an entire employee base gets health insurance together, the people needing expensive care and the people not needing any care all average out together.
But in the individual market, less healthy people are insured but more sick people are. Healthy people forgo health insurance, so the average cost per person rises.
Often/usually, the people needing very expensive care aren't employed in the first place, as they're often not able to work, or at least not able to work in a company with employer-provided health insurance in the first place.
Quick story. Once upon a time I was in a Contract-to-hire position where the contract house (CH) was paying my salary/etc until I was on-boarded.
However, this was a small shop, they had 3 people running the business and less than 2 dozen contractors under them at a time.
Between the Owner's Knee surgery, and some health issues I had had years prior, the CH's premiums were going to jump by 200$ (both on their end and the employee's). Thankfully they were able to find another insurance provider, but it was a pretty clear cut example of how sick people in the pool can sway costs by a large amount.
That's part of why a lot of US companies now will give you discounts for various wellness tasks. My BIL's company offered an insurance credit just for taking a smoking cessation course (not even STOPPING.)
300 to 600k per year salaries are not natural, German Physicians don't make that much or go to school for as long yet have similar outcomes.
In the U.S. it's 8 years of school plus a 3- to 7-year residency program, versus 6.5 years of school plus a 5- to 6-year residency program in Germany.
This is just another example of the US being a place where the gap between the haves and have nots is extremely large.
Essentially, no participant in the market has an interest in reducing costs.
The second part of the story is that the US is richer than Europe. I moved to the US from Western Europe. Before I moved here I didn't expect how much more everything is more expensive here, but at the same time salaries are also higher. The US's GDP per capita is $62k, Germany's is $47k. But that doesn't tell full story. In the US there is a big difference between low paying and high paying jobs, rural and urban areas.
However Obamacare changed the scene, I dont support it.
These plans are typically referred to as “junk insurance” but if you can’t afford or just don’t want a more comprehensive plan they’re better than nothing.
The recent collapse of movie theatres clearly illustrates that there is no reason they could be getting away with making $10 margins on popcorn, of all things, other than customers were being charged exactly as much as they would tolerate without telling the proprietors where to stick it.
Prices quoted aren't actually prices. You have zero idea how much it's going to cost you until you get the bills, often split across dozens of providers, and what you see are the results of negotiations between providers and insurers.
No, not really. This is a narrow picture of reality. People are often willing to sabotage their own bodies and drive their bodies toward obesity, clogged arteries, and liver disease while not spending the money to go to a doctor for annual checkups or flu shots.
The dollar menu is cheaper & tastier option than buying a salad and people consistently choose the cheaper, tastier option
Insurance is expensive because medical care is expensive. Medical care is expensive because of a litany of policy failures.
For a healthy, non-smoking 35-year-old you're looking around $80 a month.
For a healthy, non-smoking 70-year-old you're looking at 3 times that.
A family with a couple c. 40 and a couple of 10 year old kids is around $200-$300 a month (with no excess). With a $1300 excess that drops to $120 a month.
https://www.ibtimes.com/how-us-subsidizes-cheap-drugs-europe...
Though there are lots of other ways to frame this of course since most of that is eaten up by US marketing expenses:
https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo...
The USA spends 20% of GDP on healthcare. All other advanced economies spend about 10%.
My health insurance is through my employer, a large publicly-traded company. My insurer is one of the large well known providers.
Our insurance is very mediocre. We pay the first $3,000 out of pocket and 20% of the cost beyond that, but that's only if a doctor is "in network" (which is sometimes hard to find). Out of network doctors have a separate deductible.
I also pay 1.45% of my paycheck to Medicare, and my employer pays another 1.45% on my behalf. Plus my wife and I pay an extra 0.9% of our paychecks for all combined wages above $250,000. But I won't be eligible for Medicare until I'm 65 years old.
Calculate how much taxes you'd pay in e.g. Germany or Belgium, and put half of that towards health expenditures. I think you'll still come out ahead by a large margin.
[I am a US citizen and also have the ability to google this, but just wanted to ask another human being...]
Don't get me wrong, healthcare is the most corrupt industry in the United States (by lobbying dollars). But I give some blame to my peers for not even attempting to understand how insurance works.
Kind of figured there was a catch though, maybe not!
At that point, different metals might hit the out of pocket max sooner, but I just went for the one with the least total of premiums and out of pocket max, which was also the one with the least total of premiums, so I save money if I don't use it or if we hit the cap.
Read the link provided that explains the terms and proves that low cost plans are the best for chronic conditions.
I understand what they're saying but no one plans to get sick (pregnancies aside). Cheaper plans within the same insurance group is probably ok. Which hospital you can go to can be the difference between life and death, especially these days: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/nyregion/Coronavirus-hosp...
If someone's work is truly all-remote I'd seriously recommend looking into residency visas to places with functioning governments and healthcare. I'm currently working remotely at a US client from several locations in the Pacific.
I just had a complete auditory workup to diagnose some recent hearing changes that included consultation with a US-educated doctor, and some medication, and the total cost without any sort of insurance was ~250 USD. My monthly insurance premium at home is 400 USD and likely wouldn't even have covered half of that, because fuck you, that's why.
I spent several months working from the Canary Islands and other than my difficulties in mastering the local Spanish it was great.
> Nothing crystalizes support for medicare-for-all faster...
It's pretty messed up that the lack of universal healthcare throws a huge wrench in the thing that generates the future of society, at least among financially self-aware young people.
It used to be even worse just a few years ago. Before the ACA insurance companies often considered pregnancy a pre-existing condition:
https://www.webmd.com/health-insurance/aca-pregnancy-faq#:~:....
It goes like:
Employee's quitting, termination or reduction in hours: 18 months
Employee's divorce: 36 months
It can be further extended based on other events like disability, partner's illness etc.
-$4,800 in premiums -$11k maximum health costs
That 'maximum health costs' also doesn't really factor in the time having to deal with insurance companies chasing up decisions they make (or don't), and for money/income lost due to no work. Insurance for that - short term disability insurance - may add another $100/month on the the equation.
When I did it it worked out to paying $3k for an MS, but I bet you could look harder and get the degree and a discount over just buying a high quality plan.
Taking time off was hard for me mentally with that high rate, knowing how much gross income I'd give up to take a week off for a trip.
That’s like double the IRS allowed maximum for pre-tax 401k deferral in a year, no? This is not my area of expertise so I could easily be unaware of something. Can you explain how you did this as I’m genuinely curious and want to do the same.
For whatever reason, American love to malign things as socialist, and confuse communist totalitarian with socialism.
I work as a patent examiner right now and I noticed that the USPTO might let you switch to part-time with full benefits (that you pay more out of pocket for) after you reach GS-11. It requires approval, they have a limited number of slots for it, and the vast majority of the slots for it require a justification like parenting or eldercare.
The minimum number of hours you can work per week is 16 in the program, and you can choose which days you work. To maximize federal holidays off, pick Monday and Thursday as work days. (I think examiners need to work Thursdays from 1-2 pm due to USPTO rules, and you also get Thanksgiving this way.)
You can find some information about the USPTO's part-time program here: http://www.popa.org/about/work-life-balance/part-time-progra...
(The USPTO is also well-known for their work-from-home program.)
However, working part time for a large organization seems tricky. There are so many meetings, distractions, and responsibilities other than just coding that it seems like your actual focus time to do work would be pretty nonexistent in a part time scenario.
And TBH, if I were to work fewer hours in a year, I'd probably prefer to have bigger chunks of time off, i.e. more vacation time, than having every weekend be 3 or 4 days--much less have shorter work days.
However, I never saw a place where it could work. For one, if the rest of your team was full time and you were part time, you would automatically be less productive and useful than the rest of your peers.
With your Monday / Friday scenario with no meetings, it seems like the people that only worked Tue - Thur would have their schedule disproportionally filled with meetings, and have much less time to get stuff done. This could work for a manager type role, but it wouldn't work for an IC.
I feel like part time work, much like remote work, might require an all-in buy in from the whole team. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future companies go "all part time" and have their whole organization be tuned for part time productivity.
I would spend more time off if I had it but I really can't complain too much as I have pretty good vacation by US standards and I normally also travel a lot on business to interesting places which is almost like having extra vacation.
The one person I know who did work part time in this manner was a contract lawyer with a company and I think they could pretty much just take multi-month breaks with a bit of planning.
>I wouldn't be surprised if in the future companies go "all part time" and have their whole organization be tuned for part time productivity.
The challenge there is that the pay almost has to be less than it would be for full-time work. And a lot of (most) people aren't really in a position to take a low salary in exchange for part-time work. Overall, I assume you'd cut your hiring pool appreciably.
Part-time work at a big shop, for many returning to work new moms, can be more accurately described as squeeze 5 days of work into 3 days. I'm not saying that Microsoft cannot pull it off, but many other big shops (and even those that rate highly on such magazine prizes for working moms) have been extremely disingenuous with such claims. That being said, the full time benefits for part time work has been a real thing.
I can say unequivocally that at the USPTO as a patent examiner you would not be expected to squeeze 5 days of work into however many days you work per week. You work a certain number of "production" hours and you are expected to get a certain amount of "count" per production hour. So, as the number of production hours you have decreases, your count expectations decrease proportionally as well.
What I found to work best was that any time I entered a new market, I would find a local contractor organization (that already has a lot of contacts), and do short-term high-skill jobs for them for 3-6 months (for example, spending two weeks at a bank helping optimize one of their new internal services). Contractor organizations tend to work more with mid tier developers, but they get frequent requests for high skill jobs that they don't have the people resources for. This allowed me to build up a group of very happy local references which can then be leveraged for longer, better pay contracts.
Once I had some references and a budding reputation, I'd go to networking events 2-3 times a week and talk to as many people as possible about the kind of work they do and I do. It's not uncommon to have two or three potential contract leads out of every event. After doing that for a month or two, my availability and rep would spread by word-of-mouth, and people would start contacting me directly for work, and I could be more selective about the jobs.
I have written about this previously if anyone is interested https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23298762
The ability to work on side projects or pursue hobbies with the extra time is definitely worth it for me over the extra pay.
I probably should not bother trying to describe this here because almost no comes on HN and admits they aren't highly compensated.
I did it on a contract for a while. I'm not sure my productivity was significantly impacted. It's really hard to actually sit down and focus for more than 6 hours productively.