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Comment by save_ferris | Hacker News Reader

> The report states that, “conditioning access to a product or service in which a firm has market power to the use of a separate product or service is anticompetitive.”

I agree with this. I shouldn’t have to have a social media account in order to use a product that isn’t directly related to social media.

Accounts like Microsoft aren’t the same as Facebook IMO because they tie products and services I’ve purchased to my account, which I believe is a reasonable and relevant use of an online account in this context. Facebook doesn’t do any of that, nor does it exist to manage purchases of products or services I’ve made. It exists to siphon personal data about me to serve me ads.

If we’re serious about things like privacy, then we have to be equally serious about corporate attempts to coerce consumers into handing over data to use completely unrelated products. This is absolutely anti-privacy and should be dealt with.

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Tangentially related: newly-created Facebook accounts are a whole lot harder to keep up these days if you’re just using them for a single purpose, like following events.

I created an account last year to get more socially involved in my community but I didn’t want to post any personal information and my account kept getting disabled unless I added pictures and filled out certain sections of my profile. Not sure if it was anti-automation technology or what, but I wound up giving up after trying twice because I didn’t want to give them what they asked for.

Knowing that this is required to use a product like Oculus is unacceptable.

I had this same experience yesterday. Tried to create a new account and it was insta-locked until I started providing personal information. I hadn't even used it.

I don't use FB personally, but I needed access to Business Manager for some client work so I created an account using my work email and tried to sign up for BM. They immediately locked the account, asked for a copy of my ID, and then permanently banned that account after I provided it. I have no idea why, there's no mechanism for appeal, and I can't even submit a request to have the image of my ID removed because that form is gated behind the account.

Their "KYC" system has no problem with the 10-year-old alt that I created in college using a fake name which has never done anything but manage some ancient meme pages, though...

> I can't even submit a request to have the image of my ID removed because that form is gated behind the account.

This sounds like the sort of problem GDPR can solve. Are you in the EU, or the UK, or a place with equivalent provisions for allowing people to require business to show them what information they store, edit that info if it is wrong, and delete that info?

Unfortunately not. I've run into so many similar issues lately that I’ve seriously (maybe a little too seriously, if I'm honest) considered temporarily moving to Europe just so I can have access to this.

I have encountered the exact same situation just a few days ago to get a developer account running. I created a new account using my personal phone number and this one hasn't been shut down yet so here's hoping it stays that way.

Ask your client to supply the account. I do that for social media sites since I don't use most of them. Don't actually know about TOS, but it hasn't been a problem and certainly isn't mine.

Facebook is the new catch 22

I'm 100% in agreement that a Facebook account shouldn't be required to use an Oculus.

But to continue on your tangent, I'm curious what people expect Facebook to do if they don't collect some amount of identifying information. On one hand they have a huge problem with bots, fake likes, and misinformation accounts, and on the other hand people complain about and avoid the steps they take to prevent those accounts. So, any ideas on the solution?

If you only want to be a consumer with no "visible action", none of those issues with bots or fake likes matter, same with business accounts or accounts solely for Oculus use.

Simple. In my perfect world, Facebook events would be publicly searchable without an account. I wouldn't need to go through the hassle of setting up the account and they wouldn't need to go through the hassle of making sure I was legit or not. But the walled garden's value is predicated on keeping everyone in the silo and not able to access data publicly.

While problems like fake likes and election misinformation are real, that's feels completely orthogonal to me playing VR games. Making me jump through hoops to keep playing a copy of Beat Saber that I already bought is frankly insulting

Why should the public even care?

It’s their business to stay compatible with the society and stay sustainable as a business. If they can’t, they can go.

Disable Shares,Posting, Likes if the account is new or not trusted.

Make it so that a tree in the forest unobserved will fall without a sound.

twitter did the same thing to me, but worse.

they let me create an account and then locked it and wanted to know my phone number before they would unlock it. I can't even go delete it without giving them personal information.

Google will not allow use of certain features (setting a thumbnail for a YouTube video) without giving your phone number. So it seems mor can play this game.

Yeah, I was contemplating to maybe start a Twitter account, but didn't because of that. They do this pretty much on every account creation after a couple of hours, I guess so that you'd have some time to get on the hook.

I'm kinda used to that and accepted that, apparently, I will never use Facebook, Instagram, Twitter or Google account because of that. Whatever, I don't care. What was really infuriating, though, is when PayPal asked me to enter my phone "to make my account even safer". Fuck them, but having problems with PayPal is quite a bit more annoying than being unable to use some social media bullshit.

I hear that. I have a Google account because I still use some Google services and it isn't tied to any social media nonsense unless you count YouTube.

For twitter I just favorite the few people I want to follow.

Surprisingly my instagram account has no personal information and haven't had any issues but I don't know why.

Google does a variant of that for one of my (rarely used) email accounts. On every day I attempt to log in, they throw a coin. Heads they let me in, tails they don't let me in unless I provide a phone number.

i got the same issue a few weeks ago, account is almost 2 years old yet they decided to lock it (my following count was set to 0 and i could not tweet anymore), with only way to unlock it being giving them my phone number

however, i managed to unlock it somehow, first i sent them a trouble ticket asking why i could not tweet anymore (which immediately got me an email that said my account was locked for "suspicious activity" and that i needed to confirm my identity with phone number), then i requested all the data they had on me through the profile options, waited 3 days for them to do the archive then when i logged back in to download it they would only ask for a recaptcha challenge to unlock my account

perhaps they consider bots unable to request gdpr data ?

Just post right wing and qanon stuff and you should be safe. Half /s

Microsoft accounts are worse in every possible way because Microsoft can potentially monitor all behaviour on your OS, including what's happening in your browser and Facebook.

The issue isn't with being forced to use social media, it's being forced to use only facebook's network. Privacy is a separate issue. They could just make Oculus also connect to other social networks including facebook's competition. Then the anticompetitive complaint is gone as Oculus's market share no longer gives Facebook an advantage. Yet the creepy privacy-violating continues more than ever. Sort of like IOS and Android, where no matter which option you choose for various apps to perform functions with your phone, you probably get tracked, most of it ending up at Facebook and Google anyway.

> The issue isn't with being forced to use social media, it's being forced to use only facebook's network.

Yes it is, read the article. The report states that regulators take issue with the fact that users have to log into an account that has nothing to do with gaming in order to use a gaming product.

This isn’t about using one social media network over another, it’s about requiring users to hand over personal consumer data in order to use a product that has no reason not to function without it.

>Yes it is, read the article.

Assuming we are talking about the same tiny article, you are oddly confident in your interpretation. The "conditioning access" quote is not directly about Facebook. The 400-page linked document talks about conditioning access in reference to google pushing search use via its android apps, analogous to what I stated above with facebook pushing their network.

As for the statements specifically about Facebook which the linked article did quote, they describe Facebook doing exactly what I said is the problem, namely not allowing competitors to use its platform.

Isn't that quote also the exact thing Apple and Google are doing by forcing a payment processor on people publishing apps to their app stores?

(which I also think is a behaviour that should be stopped)

What if they sold it as "Facebook Oculus"?

That wouldn’t change anything.

The issue is that Oculus is a gaming platform, and gaming platforms don’t need social media data to play games. It’s an arbitrary requirement that has no practical function beyond collecting user data.

Imagine needing to log into Facebook in order to use your TV, refrigerator, etc. This is what regulators are trying to get ahead of.

> This is what regulators are trying to get ahead of.

Hasn't the exact same thing been happening already for a long time with Google accounts?

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