I built an app to fix my depression | Hacker News Reader

I built an app to fix my depression

blog.elifiner.com

64 pointszoozla40 comments

Past comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24439612

To comment on the top comment: how do you know if it’s self-acceptance or learned helplessness?

I’ve found myself asking the same question, particularly from the perspective of learned helplessness. Having experienced now some modest amount of self-acceptance, I’ve found that one good marker of it is empowerment.

Do you feel like you’re standing on a reliable foundation, and able to exert some leverage to achieve your goals? Or do you feel that you’re best off not striving? Those look like two opposite ends of a spectrum to me.

For me, self-acceptance leads directly to empowerment. I feel like my goals are legitimate and worthy of effort. It feels like the energy I might otherwise direct at inward discontent is free instead for other things.

Helplessness feels inert. I feel ok not striving for my [unachievable] goals.

Consider reading Radical Acceptance by Tara Brach. It’s written exactly for this.

The self-acceptance talked about there is about recognizing where you are and forgiving yourself for mistakes. You could have learned helplessness, but that’s not a reason to attack yourself; it’s counter productive to the remedy.

I can't find anything on your website or the app's website listing your qualifications. How are you qualified to advise people on how to fix their depression?

What medical studies and approval has your app been through?

If this article persuades even a single person to ditch their prescribed medication in favour of your app—after all who would want to end up in a straight-jacket—and that person then harms themselves, how are you going to deal with that?

You sound foolish and pompous. And you speak from an arrogance that medicine is a definitive solution to depression and depression-like problems.

But that's not necessarily true. Maybe it helped you. It certainly doesn't help all others. It partially helped me. But eventually a bunch of other cognitive practices (none of which are 'approved by medical studies') became a much better cocktail of long-term solutions.

This app appears to be just another tool that adults can use to find the custom solution that works for them. I don't see anywhere that he's recommending stop taking SSRIs and use his app exclusively. He's explaining his own journey.

Your comment deserves an honest reply. If someone hurts themselves because of something that I've said or done, and there is a chance it might, I will hurt, I will mourn and I will do time if it comes to that. But the risk of this won't stop me from looking for better answers to these problems because the answers we have right now aren't good enough. And if a thousand people avoid harming themselves because of this approach and one still does, is that a failure?

> And if a thousand people avoid harming themselves because of this approach and one still does, is that a failure?

That’s why we have trials and regulations to assess this risk. Is 1000:1 a good ratio? I don’t know. But I know it is not up to us to make that call.

> But the risk of this won't stop me from looking for better answers to these problems because the answers we have right now aren't good enough.

Current answers we have for covid is not good enough either but it doesn’t mean we get to experiment willy-nilly in the public space.

I admire your self-experimentation and I actually like your tool but you can’t make money out of it while advertising in association with the claim that it fixed your depression.

You’re a small enough operation right now that neither FDA or FTC would care much about it, but the very least if you are sincere with your intentions you should put out a bold banner saying “I am not a professional, this is not intended to diagnose cure any problem, if you need help see a professional” everywhere on the site.

Also you should be careful with collecting psychometric data, not that it would put you in HIPAA land because you’re not a licensed medical professional, but it is still highly sensitive data so you should be explicit about your data collection.

Qualifications schwamifications...

Where in the website did the app claim to "fix depression"? From what I can see, it helps you identify and release negative emotions.

It's literally the title of this post.

It says fix "my" depression, neatly sidestepping any question of what other people should do and who's responsible for it.

Unfortunately it's not quite so neat.

In the United States, the FDA considers personal anecdata forbidden when it comes to the sale and marketing of dietary supplements -- for example, statements such as "This product cured/helped/relieved/improved/fixed my/my aunt's/someone's diabetes" (on a product label, website, or even verbally by a salesperson or retail clerk in a store) are strictly forbidden as they may be construed to be medical advice

This is covered by the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994. I don't know if DSHEA covers websites/apps/digital products -- probably not -- but I would be very surprised if there wasn't similar legislation covering websites, apps, and digital products

Note that DSHEA does prescribe language for safely discussing the effects of non-drug therapies. It's called structure-function language -- OP should definitely read up on it (better: talk to a lawyer versed in these matters, and note that I am not a lawyer, none of the above is intended as legal advice)

Thanks for this, I'll definitely look into it.

He built an app to fix HIS depression. The apps website does not make any such claims.

> It’s an online app that can help you tap into your hidden emotions and release them so they no longer influence your behaviour or cause depressive symptoms.

Did you read the article at all?

Here is a quote where they state the app can stop the cause of your depressive symptoms. That clear cut enough for you? Or do you still want to be wilfully obtuse?

Nobody owns the intellectual property to "the cure of depression". Are you suggesting that the only way to cure depression is by paying a medical professional using only scientifically backed and proven methods and procedures some money? Are you in the industry yourself?

A hobby can cure depression. A better diet can cure depression. More exercise can cure depression. Finding purpose can cure depression. Painting can cure depression. Dancing can cure depression. The heavens forbid someone start a dancing class that claims to help release negative emotions without a medical degree and scientific research to back it up.

And if a hobbyist, dietician, personal trainer, life coach, painter, or choreographer was telling people to stop taking their perscribed medications before they end up in a straight-jacket and instead just diet/exercise/paint/dance/etc then yes I think those people would be just as culpable for any harm they caused.

There's a difference between "these things might help the symptoms of depression" and "Doctor telling you to take life saving medication, what if it makes you crazy? I have no evidence that it will, but I feel like it might. You should use this app instead"

> A hobby can cure depression. A better diet can cure depression. More exercise can cure depression

We are not talking about a mere feeling down here. Depression is a clinically defined term with specific criteria, and no nothing you can fix with a new hobby is clinical depression, and yes if you claim to be fixing it with any tool which you make available to public you need to be a licensed professional.

> Nobody owns the intellectual property to "the cure of depression".

Luckily intellectual property protection is not the only protection we have around medical interventions. No one has the intellectual property to tonsillectomy either, and you're free to try operating on your own, but you will get into trouble real fast if you advertised you doing it to public as a fix to some ailment.

> We are not talking about a mere feeling down here.

Down where? Go to the apps website and find the term "clinical depression", then come back and tell me what we're talking about down here. It most certainly not back there... which is my whole point. Whats the world coming to if someone cannot create an app to help ease negative emotions without being harassed by gatekeepers and rent seekers?

You parsed the sentence wrong, I am talking about "feeling down", not "down here".

The title of the advertising blog post is literally "I built an app to fix my depression" and goes on to the details of their situation. Certainly we don't have enough data to assess the severity of their n=1 depression but having gone to professionals and used SSRI medication by definition makes them a part of the clinical population.

If they were to say "this app helped me with the negative emotions that came with depression", that would be OK, but they go on to claim that app has fixed their previously SSRI requiring depression, an app they sell a public subscription for. That association is definitely not OK.

> Whats the world coming to if someone cannot create an app to help ease negative emotions without being harassed by gatekeepers and rent seekers?

It is the same world where people have induced harm abusing people's illnesses or desperation in the name of a quick buck. I am not saying this is the intention of the app maker, but the gate-keeping is there for a reason.

Look at this way, anything claiming to be potent enough to fix something can also be potent enough to hurt you. We can't have it both ways with wishful thinking. That is why we need discrete labels, concrete processes and well evidenced claims when we go about what is an antibiotic or what is a cure for depression.

> The title of the advertising blog post is literally

He has every moral and legal right to share his story of what inspired him to create his app. He also has every right, to share his story about his struggles with depression, and what did and did not work for him. You too, have every right to be cynical about his intentions and healing. If he makes money out of his work, good for him. If you read some of the comments here, many have already found it beneficial. Good for them too. And your twitter friend just gave him even more publicity and marketing. so you keep living in your world of fear and cynicism. I'll live in mine of love and courage.

> You too, have every right to be cynical about his intentions and healing.

On the contrary, I don't doubt much about their intentions or healing. But that alone isn't sufficient to absolve them from responsibility or scrutiny while talking about a paid product for a holy grail medical problem like depression.

> He also has every right, to share his story about his struggles with depression, and what did and did not work for him.

But that is not the only thing they are doing now, is it? They are linking their paid app to that story, and that puts it in the realm of false advertising. FTC and FDA regulates the real world, independent of our being full of love or fear, and if that app was big enough it would likely be in trouble.

> so you keep living in your world of fear and cynicism. I'll live in mine of love and courage.

I'd watch for confirmation bias.

You're being obtuse, not him. /A cause/ of depressive symptoms is not the same as /the cause/ of (your) depressive symptoms.

Do you also ask anyone who writes a dieting cookbook for their medical degree? The author does not state anywhere that the user should stop taking their medication or stop getting treated by professionals.

> The doc recommended I up the dosage, but I could see this would eventually lead me to a straitjacket.

That sounds like they're making a pretty strong argument for stopping taking the Doctor recommended medication.

Think about why organized religion has survived for thousands of years all over the world. You will reach this inequality sooner or later -

Number of ppl with qualifications to help the suffering < Number of people suffering

So keep asking the questions, but also be aware of the values of those 2 variables in your neck of the woods. And when there is a gap expect all kinds of gap filling.

If you're struggling with mental health issues, I highly recommend speaking with a qualified professional.

This does not necessarily mean you will end up on medication. There are tons of things that you may not know how to leverage that can improve your mental health and overall happiness.

Know that it will take some shopping around. As with any doctor, do your homework, ask friends, and don't stick with one until they "feel right". The modern world is hell on brains that evolved to fit a very different environment than the one in which we live today, and it can take a lot of work to structure your life to deal with that.

Also, remember be both kind to and honest with yourself.

It can be so easy to beat yourself up when you fail or fall down, or to try and shift the blame to other people, but these are both anti-patterns.

Nobody makes every shot they take. Especially when you are learning. Pick yourself up, take a breather, think on what your next step is, and get back in the game.

I absolutely agree with this, especially with being kind with ourselves and with shopping around. And don't limit the shopping around to only people with important sounding diplomas on their walls. Some are awesome, some aren't. The person who helped me the most on my path had no formal qualifications, just deep innate wisdom and compassion.

Based on my experience, about 12 years of psychotherapy for depression, the relationship with the therapist is the medium where the therapy is actually performed. Relationships take at least two to build. Even Stuff like the life experience and the personality of the therapist are important. Without the right relationship, you can get support but true therapy requires the establishment of an honest relationship between the therapist and the "patient".

I zipped through this to see what it was. Had to wait a bit since the server seems to be busy. No worries though:)

I like this concept. It was very relaxing. I did a far too rapid run through a bunch of feelings testing various inputs and responses. I like the way it cycles back through to help you focus on solving the problem that you have identified yourself as having. Very nice.

I did find one of your response options has an error.

There are a couple of options presented for answers - OK, NO, YES, ?, NOT YET.

Maybe a couple of others. One of the dialogs where you are offering a question box [?] shows up as "Question_square" or something very similar to that. I apologize for not taking notes. I believe that it was in the first group of negative Feelings that started with a "D".

I also found one sentence in the written dialog that makes no sense as it looks like a word was left out. This was probably in the positive feelings list. It was in the descriptive part with dialog that had a comma followed by a couple of words that looked out of place as they didn't fit in the sentence like some other thought was edited out and they are now an orphaned phrase. I am starting to feel sad for those poor words thinking about it. Might have to dip back into it if I can get back on the server! :)

I tried to get back to it but your server is evidently getting slammed by all the people curious for a solution to their problems.

Good luck with this. Nicely done.

Thanks so much for taking a deep look at it. I'll do another round of testing and editing on the dialogs, I might have missed a few spots there. The orphaned words are eternally greatful for your gentle care!

I tried this and really liked it, and found it helpful in the one session I did.

Then, I've not gotten around to doing another in the last month .. and I'm not sure why .. feels like I'm struggling against doing the things that would help me, maybe because they would also change me or something, I'm not sure

I think this app and technique could be very powerful

> I went to the doctor, told him I was feeling mild flu symptoms for a couple of months, he asked me a few questions, determined that I had depression, gave my some SSRIs, and sent me home.

That seems like a pretty normal experience to me. Slightly confused and have a hard time with the definitions keeping the social stigma aside!. Would be great to gather some perspective from HN.

What is depression? How does it compare to stress, or anxiety in itself due to unfulfilled needs of hardwork, rewards, ambition, wants and desires?

And ... How is diagnosed? And how medical help is useful? :-) (I know I perhaps need to RTFM)

things that helped me with depression - cut out sugar and carbs (yes even fruit) - Therapy - cutting out ppl that trigger me for a while - legal psychedelics - training with my dog After I got better, there is still the maintenance for low self esteem and social skills - Therapy - Meditation - meetups - nonviolent communication

What psychedelics are legal?

Depends on the country, but we're still a long way off a wide legalization. Some cities in the US (IIRC Denver?) have decriminalized psychedelics, but it's not the same thing as legalizing them. There's a lot of research going on and a lot of good results coming in, so hopefully we'll be in a different place in a few years.

Don’t have depression but have some stress and tension. Tried this and it was very helpful! Did feel like it released some areas physically, while dwelling on and letting go past stresses.

I wish I could navigate through the introduction audio Also there is some audio instruction not written down.

This is great though. Thank you for building this.

Thanks! Writing this down, will see what I can do about adding some controls for the audio. The non-written instructions are for times when your eyes are supposed to be closed :)

Clickbait title

Reply on news.ycombinator.com