Comment by matsemann | Hacker News Reader

Comment by matsemann | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Or could it be like a judge in sports, you only notice it when the judge makes the wrong call, but all the correct ones are ignored?

My union in Europe doesn't really do that much in my day-to-day work. As a skilled worker in demand we're generally treated very well.

But for the broader questions they are nice to have. For instance they recently spear-headed the abolishing of anti-competitive contracts. That's something a lone worker probably cannot achieve.

When I graduated they said what I should expect to be paid. Which was useful as I really didn't have that much information (compared to the companies), and it also helped to anchor the pay as no graduates would settle for lower. And the union could reveiew the contracts and see what we should push back on before signing. That in itself probably helps keeping everything straight, as the companies know they cannot get away with abusive contracts so they won't even bother trying.

> Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud?

Yes, they are. I've been working a booth at a convention showing off some tech and asked a passing worker for an extension cord. The response was that they asked on the radio, but the only person available to perform this role was on lunch so it'd be at least 45 minutes until I could get an extension cord.

I have had this happen in many different situations when working with union members.

Anecdotally, I do not want to be a part of any union that has these types of rules.

> or is it a one-off being used to spread fud

you replied to this with a one-off anecdote to spread fud

Anyone who has ever worked events will tell you that is hardly a one-off anecdote.

Events and convention rules are absolutely different from rules for employees working inside a company.

If it had happened only once or only a few times, I'd agree. This type of thing happens at every single convention.

The situation around conventions is particularly bad. The nickel and dime-ing of the venues are part of it but, as you say, many of the work rules are pretty stereotypically outrageous. Not that everything is entirely unreasonable; at convention center scale, things would descend into chaos rapidly if booth staff and others started winging things. But it's pretty bad especially in places like NYC.

It's not universally bad but, as someone else said, organizations become about themselves and their leadership. A former GF was in a union and she had very few good things to say about hers. [ADDED: That is an anecdote. I state no opinion about unions generally.]

>> Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud?

> Yes, they are. I've been working a booth at a convention showing off some tech and asked a passing worker for an extension cord. The response was that they asked on the radio, but the only person available to perform this role was on lunch so it'd be at least 45 minutes until I could get an extension cord.

While the anecdote is true, it's also FUD, because there's no good reason to expect a tech worker's union would work like that. It would exist to solve tech worker's problems, which are different than those of a convention center worker. If tech workers would chafe at rigid role definitions, a tech worker's union that they control would not impose them.

> If tech workers would chafe at rigid role definitions, a tech worker's union that they control would not impose them.

Name a union, any union, that does not impose rigid role definitions.

The fact is, there aren't any. Their entire purpose is to categorize employees into roles as a basis for bargaining. If every worker was unique, then collective bargaining would be impossible. The entire point is to group people together and bargain for the rights of that group, and to sign up every member of that group to the deal that was obtained.

Does SAG have rigid role definitions?

I am from Brazil, from what I heard unions in Brazil, US and Europe all work wildly differently from each other.

In US in particular unions seemly often have power not only to defend workers but also to define workplace rules and even to veto decisions of the CEO of the company and whatnot.

Also in US unions were first born in a extremely violent manner, with both sides actually killing each other, and the culture there is thus much more antagonistic, unions and companies are perceived as literal enemies, where even violence is actually possible (not that people would use violence currently but people might not forget violence of the past).

From what I heard European unions have a more "cooperative" relationship with the company.

I have many good things to say about unions in the US. The the BS work rules are NOT one of those things, and have been a part of every union I have dealt with. In my experience the the BS work rules are there to slow down work, and increase hiring & especially increase overtime.

> Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud?

I worked at Northrop Grumman a decade ago as a developer and a lot of the non-tech people were unionized. There were certain things I was not allowed to do because it was the job of some union person. For example, moving equipment was prohibited. When I changed desks I wasn't allowed to move my phone, PC, or monitors, I had to let the person whose job it was to do that, do that. It only happened twice, but in both instances I was without a computer and phone for a day or two, even though my old desk wasn't too far away. It was annoying and seemed illogical.

Since we are exchanging anecdotes, this also happened at my non-union job.

They are worse than you can imagine, at least from my anecdotal experience. Someone I know is a teacher and wanted to do clean up invasive plants overtaking some parts of the school grounds with kids, as a field trip for Environmental Science where they were studying invasive species. Alas, they cannot do that because the union of whoever is supposed to do that will not allow it. Only they can do it. Of course, they themselves haven't done it in years and have no plans to start.

I almost lost a contract with a city after union members complained that I was on their turf. Their non union bosses hired me for a job they aren't qualified for, or interested in having, to solve problems they'd been complaining about for years, but because I was using oxygen in their vicinity it became a legitimate union issue because of the language in their contracts. So, yeah. Unions do stupid stuff. I still support them. Kind of wish my contract had been cancelled, could have doubled my rate when they crawled back.

(US) Unions for many blue and white collar jobs are like this. Many folks like that type of structure, others hate it.

Can't speak for all unions but my experience with a couple of unions has been like this. One place had a rule where you (the engineer) can only have 1 CAD drawing request out to the CAD department at a time. And of course the CAD department was backlogged. So in practice it means you're sitting around waiting for the draft to come back for 4 - 6 weeks doing practically nothing.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com