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Comment by shams93 | Hacker News Reader

However the best solution would be the replace h1b with just citizenship - if you have rare skills why shouldn't we offer immediate citizenship to the talented?

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That's what countries like Canada has, while they do have a work visa program, getting permanent residency is actually easier for talented folks.

Not really; If you have an in-demand skill set you get extra 'points' on the PR scoring chart, but you need to demonstrate many other things to reach the threshold required to get status. I went through that process and was denied because my work experience was through contracting (which for whatever reason didn't count). This was 10 years ago though, so things may have changed (also after three applications I finally got PR and then citizenship as of last year).

Not really. It has gotten worse.

It used to be if you are a graduate or have experience working in a Canadian company you would score points. Which was much less prone to abuse.

Now they still have point based system, but the above don't get any extra point, and if you have those said qualifications anywhere, as long as you can prove (through documentations) you get the same points.

Result is rampant abuse with overseas companies that "vet" candidates' degrees and experience providing certificates and such things. And it takes longer for graduates from Canadian universities or someone with experience working at a company here since they compete in the same lottery pool. It is still far better than US, but it could take you a while before your points start closer to the draw.

I went through the thing in Australia just 3 years ago. We have the same problem with people from certain country having a lot of experience and inflate the point system. The exp points in Australia acummulate twice as fast as exp overseas so those who worked in Australia like myself still have the advantage. However I am now not a fan of the point system as it's just another standard test to be hijacked by multiple attack vectors. I'd much prefer the european way where work visa is given out easily with fair wage and better mobility, (in Australia you have 4 - 6 weeks to find a new employer, not impossible for software but a bit tight). From what I've heard there is no real incentive to acquire citizenship/PR in many european countries b/c temporary residents enjoy the same stability.

It's not totally true that you don't need PR in European countries. For example you would get very different treatments and interest rates for loans when you want to buy real estate or apply for credit cards (many banks flatout turn down your application). You're probably not that much of a "second class citizen" compared to somebody working in the US, but some subtle restrictions still do exist. Though of course I can easily imagine the situation being much worse in the US.

Getting Canadian permanent status is fairly tough. The points based system is merit based.

No, it really isn't. If you have your masters you can immediately be granted PR. This is the case for all Indian nationals - however it is still lottery based. The point system you're talking about is for unskilled labour, and that still has the 5 year in the country+ language requirements.

AFAIK, even a master's degree has points which add to your total in the comprehensive ranking system.

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...

And those points matter towards getting a Permanent Residence Status.

This is completely wrong. There's no lottery for Canadian PR.

There's no fast track for masters. It's entirely points based.

Source: I work at Google Canada and submitted my PR application last year.

No, Canada doesn't have this. I don't know any country that gives immediate citizenship to talented individuals.

Canada discriminates against those with disabilities that they deem would impose an 'excess burden', regardless of whether you have a good paying job or not. They are not perfect.

Because this would make citizenship worthless. Being a citizen means that one is loyal to and has a strong connection to their country.

That's what folks pretend it means. IF you give citizenship to folks born there - or even born there to citizens, etc - then it isn't at all about loyalty.

Same with granting asylum seekers citizenship and so on. Same with allowing dual citizenship - are you loyal to two countries? Citizenship is never about loyalty.

Citizenship has a lot more to do with the ways you contribute to the country. Folks born in a country are likely to live there for life and contribute by speaking the local language, participating in local customs, being educated in and working in the country, and most importantly, paying taxes. This is why some categories are seen as "less important": Because folks think that some categories won't integrate enough (and it is impossible for an immigrant to ever do this, regardless of background), some won't learn enough language, or won't contribute as much. The truth of this is thrown out the window, of course, and there is no real objective test to test these sorts of things. Time in country might be one of the better tests, though it isn't perfect.

Citizenship has been diluted in recent decades, but it's not just pretense. And while the US has a rather puzzling loophole around birth and citizenship, that doesn't apply AFAIK in the EU: a child born to foreign parents will have to apply for citizenship just like anyone else. Asylum seekers likewise.

Dual citizenship's typically only allowed in the EU when the other country is also an EU country. Some countries do not even allow that. There's even a citizenship test which is administrated.

Loyalty is not a requirement for a citizen in any free country.

It is in the US: "Throughout our nation's history, foreign-born men and women have come to the United States, taken the Oath of Allegiance to become naturalized citizens, and contributed greatly to their new communities and country. The Oath of Allegiance has led to American citizenship for more than 220 years."

https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/learn-about-citizenship/th...

Now I haven't looked into many other countries, but at least in the EU I know that there's many proxies for loyalty when applying for citizenship. And many countries do not accept dual citizenship, which should make things clear for you hopefully.

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