Hacker News Reader

Comment by panpanna | Hacker News Reader

One of the reasons I am not switching to an "alternative" platform like librem or pinephone is that I need apps for things like banking, which are available for iOS and android only.

With a working android emulation I could switch from android much easier.

View on HN

I've heard this a couple of times and it seems a bit strange. My bank is entirely online and has a very nice app (USAA) but there's absolutely nothing that can be done in the app and can't be done with their webpage.

Is this something that happens often in eg Europe?

There's more examples, but the main feature I'd lose is contactless pay with my phone. Which I could live without, but it's such a nice feature that I use multiple times a day that I'm not sure what it would take to get me to give it up.

I think that the US doesn't use mobile payment a lot, so it might not be obvious (if you're in the US, that is)

There is a European banking regulation mandating 2FA. Apps are starting to be mandatory because they generate the OTP or authorize access: start logging in in the browser on the computer and authorize the access with a fingerprint in the app.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_customer_authentication

I would say the authentication app is becoming mandatory, not the banking apps.

It is perfectly possible to use the website but authorize with the app. Which I admit does not solve the problem at hand

This is what I usually do: login on the computer and authorize on the app with a fingerprint or a PIN. It depends on the bank and doesn't require signin in into the home banking, only opening the app. The access to home banking in the app is always by fingerprint.

If the app is on the same device as the OTP, that's not really 2FA, since the device has both factors on it, making the device 1 factor. Maybe 1.5 factor since there are ways to steal a password without getting access to the device. Anyway the computer or a dongle can be the OTP device just as well as the phone can.

It is two factor still. For example, if you need to give a OTP through sms after puting the credentials. It is possible someone stole the credentials and entered them on another device, but he also has to put the OTP sent through SMS to prove he is also in possesion of the phone number and thus makes the authentication a two factor. If you think both authentications on the same device is one factor, both authentications in the same room is also one factor, going by the same logic - an attacker will have you and everything needed to force his way into your bank account together, then he only needs a big baseball bat to do the job.

Many banks allow you to request a physical device to generate the tokens, so a smartphone isn't required.

The login shortcuts make it somewhat worthwhile. Many of the finance apps have a 'quick view' function and also allow for faster logins via specific PINs and such. It is a convenience to quickly check balances or recent transactions while using the phone.

> but there's absolutely nothing that can be done in the app and can't be done with their webpage.

I have never gotten the check deposit tool to work on the website. I know it is nonexistent in the mobile site. So for me, the only way to deposit a check (with USAA) is to either mail it or use the Android app.

Wow I forgot about check depositing, the last time I did that I still had an account with a bank with physical branches and didn't bother with "online banking."

Unfortunately this is the direction. Most banks here now require the app even for two factor to access their website. I consider it a lost battle.

Don't the app stores require a safe bootloader? And the banking apps in turn require a working app store.

I believe that's how they keep it secure, everything stops working if Google detects you've cracked your bootloader somehow.

Disclaimer; I'm using layperson's terms. But I've re-installed a few Pixel phones with Lineage.

If you manage to get a device ID, which wasn't too difficult last time I checked, you can install all the Google crap you want, including the Play store. Rare banking apps will work without any Google crap, most will require Google Play Services (microG works sometimes too), so even without a store, you can just get the APK from wherever and you're good. Modification detection can be handled with Magisk Hide, root detection with RootCloak, custom XPosed modules for the sneakier ones.

Occasionally you will see apps using obfuscated native binaries to do advanced detection, but those are rare enough that you can just switch banks.

>get the APK from wherever

What an improvement over https. I'm glad the android sandbox has given us so much security.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. You can get the APK directly from the Play store with some clever trickery (see the Evozi downloader), but even downloading it from any of the dozen or so mirror sites is secure, if that's your concern, because APKs are signed with the developer's key.

The reason I said "from wherever" is that sharing APKs G Play is a legal grey area and I didn't want to mention one specific way of getting them because there are many, all with different pros and cons.

For apps that really need security, android porivdes attestation using secure element.

https://developer.android.com/training/safetynet/attestation

https://source.android.com/security/keystore/attestation

So it's not all wild west. But most apps don't need this level of security.

> Modification detection can be handled with Magisk Hide, root detection with RootCloak, custom XPosed modules for the sneakier ones.

Not really, if they're not using hardware attestation for Safetynet they will do soon. And even the developer for Magisk believes there's no practical way around that.

https://www.xda-developers.com/safetynet-hardware-attestatio...

Thankfully that hasn't rolled out everywhere yet, and most banking apps I've used rely on less sophisticated methods of tamper detection (like RootBeer).

Hopefully Orange Man's little trade war slows down adoption by devs somewhat, but once that fizzles out, we might have to start looking at a regulatory angle. I don't like that idea, but what other choice do we have? Google clearly doesn't listen to their customers (or rather, we aren't their customers) and good luck even getting in touch with a bank's dev team, let alone convince them to do something that, to their uneducated higher-ups at least, looks like a security downgrade.

The store does, but not all apps require it and can be sideloaded.

Assume banking apps do tho

Some apps require a locked bootloader to run. Others just require a locked bootloader to download from the Playstore.

There are other ways of obtaining the APKs outside the playstore, however.

My banking app isn't supposed to work if the phone is rooted, but it rarely gives me trouble.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com