Regal and Cineworld reportedly closing all theaters in US and UK next week | Hacker News Reader

Regal and Cineworld reportedly closing all theaters in US and UK next week

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86 pointszeristor82 comments

If cinemas had never existed, just TVs in people's homes, and a startup (post pandemic) tried to pitch the idea as

"Its like theatre but for films, everyone buys a ticket and then you play a film on a really big screen and you watch it with a few friends and lots of strangers, we think we can get exclusives for a few months before they go to streaming"

Do you think anyone would be interested? Discuss.

I think if I were to pitch something like the small London theatres, there'd be a market. The differences:

* Smaller screens

* Comfier seats

* Higher quality snacks

* Plus beers, cocktails, small appertiser type meals (e.g. sliders or similar)

* Films known to have cinematic/spectacular appeal from any time rather than just the latest releases.

* 'The Room' playing once a month

I would absolutely pay current cinema prices, plus food + drink for an afternoon of comfort and films that I otherwise wouldn't see, in the atmosphere they were meant for. I guess it brings it closer to theatre in that sense as you tend to have a better idea of what you're seeing, whether people like it, whether you already like it and whether it's going to be worth your time/money.

Not sure if it’s nationwide, but my local Vue halved their seat count a few years ago, replacing the crappy fold-down seats with ultra-spacious recliners. It really made a huge difference and pre-pandemic I’d try to go at least once a month, especially at quiet times when I was often one of only two or three people in the screen.

Obviously the fact that so few other people were there is not great for the theatre, but it was a really enjoyable experience.

Not to mention it set up something of a feedback loop—I’d see trailers for upcoming films that I would then go back to see. I don’t really see ads for films at home, so even though cinemas reopened some time ago I hadn’t thought to go until recently (well, that and the fact that it’s probably a hot-bed for infection).

Is that Cambridge? They did that at the Grafton Centre and I went much more often.

Newcastle-under-Lyme: I guess they’ve done it in a lot of them

Did they start charging more for the recliners?

The cinemas in Singapore have both fold-down seats and recliners, and the premium halls with recliners cost 3x more.

What that sounds like is a party room that comes with a wide screen entertainment system. What might make that work would be a system where you can group up with people you are more connected to, not complete strangers.

It already works. There are lots of local independent cinemas like this.

My understanding is that their economics have been tenuous, especially if they're trying to compete with commercial theater-like AV technology.

What I'd love to see would be group-buys at local theaters, with the entire catalog of film at pre-negotiated prices.

You’ve just described The Alamo Drafthouse. A chain of movie theaters based in Austin, TX and now making it’s way across the continental US. If you’re in an American metro area there’s a strong chance that there may be one in your city.

The culture of cinema appreciation and improved experience that they’re fostering is such a significant improvement over the sterile feel of Regal or AMC-type cinemas that I will always favor The Drafthouse over them whenever I can.

They have my strongest recommendation.

There is a strong appreciation for cinema that permeates the entire chain. From their programming of new AND old films, to their special events, to their creativity in presentation.

There’s a lot of little touches that really make a difference. As you wait in the theater for the show to start they play purpose-made 30 minute pre-rolls that relate to the film you’re about to watch. These can include videos that flesh-out or explain the lore of the story you’re about to watch, funny Youtube clips of home-made skits based around the film’s IP, or bizarre film-nerd deep cuts that you would never see unless you know the type of person who collects them (Turkish Spiderman comes to mind).

All of this replaces the teeth-grindingly irritating commercial reels that play in most theaters while you wait. The kind with shitty purpose-made “Hollywood Insider” trivia clips, or “unscramble the celebrity name” quizzes. The difference that it makes to not have to endure these while you wait for the movie is significantly more enjoyable.

>I would absolutely pay current cinema prices, plus food + drink for an afternoon of comfort and films that I otherwise wouldn't see, in the atmosphere they were meant for. I guess it brings it closer to theatre in that sense as you tend to have a better idea of what you're seeing, whether people like it, whether you already like it and whether it's going to be worth your time/money.

All of the theaters in CA/WA that I've been too in the last 5-10 years fit your description with the exception of the last two points (I avoid theaters without #4). There's nothing like a Pixar movie in theaters with a pitcher of Imperial Stout and surf-and-turf dinner.

I would also show TV shows.

For example Rerun the wire or the sopranos one episode a week

And I don't have a nationwide perspective, so it might be different elsewhere, but every theater I've been to over the past decade or so has been slowly converging on that model.

When does it converge into a home theater in someone’s house where you can just drink/stream what you want?

Well, I'm not gonna lie, I'm already doing that an order of magnitude more often than going to a movie theater. But then again, maybe that supports the point - now that huge TVs are so common, is there anyone who wanted to watch movies at home that wasn't already doing it in 2019?

Probably never. People like to go out for the experience. You might as well ask when pubs will converge into people just drinking in their kitchens.

So a high-end home-cinema setup (heh) that you can rent for those who don't have the space or can't afford the hardware?

Sadly charging people money to view stuff on your home cinema is pretty much impossible to do legally.

AirBnB for home cinemas would be awesome if it existed though!

What if it's 'bring your own entertainment', and you're just renting the room and equipment? They login to their own netflix account and play whatever???

There is such a system already if you are a millionaire. You get access to first release movies that you can play at home but it not streamed but sent to a bespoke media server.

It is about $3000 per rental.

https://www.redcarpethomecinema.com/

I think it'd depend how convincing you were on exclusives. While the biggest movies aren't being made by streaming companies I think there'll always be a market for being able to see the biggest movies earliest. Keeping everything in today's timeline, Disney+ would probably be the biggest reason to think you wouldn't succeed - because now a bunch of the biggest movies are being made by a streaming company.

> While the biggest movies aren't being made by streaming companies

What major movie studio isn't connected to a streaming company? Sony owns or co-owns several. Universal has common ownership with Peacock. Disney obviously has Disney+, also Hulu. Warner is part of AT&T, so is tied to HBO Max by ownership. Paramount is tied to CBS All Access (soon to be rebranded as Paramount+). 20th Century is now a Disney brand. Lionsgate has Starz streaming. etc., etc., etc.

You're missing the top quality sound system and complete blackout of other sources of light, which are both hard to achieve at home. (These days, I'd argue a good 45-60inch 4k TV is probably up there in terms of image quality though, which wasn't the case a decade ago.)

Most digital cinema I've been to is actually 2K, including so-called IMAX screens. The black levels aren't all that black either, and the luminosity is low. The only upside is color accuracy and less compression.

Calibrated TVs and home projectors have had better potential quality than movie theaters for a long time.

Yes people would be interested if the theater focused on quality. There are some movies I'd like to see in theaters just for the experience, and movie theaters can cultivate that by cutting ads, focusing on superior picture/sound quality, and otherwise creating a premium experience. Movie theaters would definitely be smaller than they are now though.

Maybe if you have thousands of dollars to spend on a home-cinema, it's not worth it but you can't really replicate the cinema experience both in terms of being blasted by the speakers and socially.

Seeing an awful film in a cinema is a hard experience to describe and/or replicate, for example.

Wouldn't this same argument apply to Starbucks or even just any restaurant in general?

I can make coffee or cook food at home, why would I go some place and pay to do the same thing in a crowd?

The reason is because these businesses are able to deliver a better product than most of us have access to at home. There is also a huge communal and social aspect to doing these together in public rather than alone or in very small groups at home.

Coffee places and snack joints fulfill an immediate need: I need a coffee/food now. I'm rarely urgently in need of a movie.

Restaurants are more comparable, I suppose, but cooking a restaurant quality meal takes time, effort, and skill, turning on Netflix doesn't. You're right about the social aspects, though it's often a downside as much as an upside.

Don't forget to throw in the stink of popcorn, sweet sticky carpets, 30 minutes of advertising and distracting bright phones in the auditorium.

Yes! I have a fine TV setup at home but I want to get out of the house too. Post pandemic the last thing I want to do is stay in.

So it's like a play but not live? Interesting. Does it cost less than attending a full production?

Yes and the running costs are lower and you can pack in two or three showings in an evening. We plan to keep tickets relatively cheap but make a big profit on confectionary. Unfortunately there's no interval, so we'll make everyone walk past the confectionary on their way in ...

No, not at all. I think theaters have been dying for a long time but very slowly, and the pandemic just accelerated their demise.

This is a bit of a disaster, I won't shed any tears for the massive multiplexes or the people behind Cineworld, but their local Picturehouse cinemas are wonderful, often local hubs and employ many dedicated and lovely people. In and around London, I will personally miss Bromley Picturehouse, The Ritzy in Brixton and The Gate in Notting Hill. Cineworld Feltham for a time was the busiest cinema in the entire country, seemingly due to its schedule of Bollywood movies. A lot of customers and employees being hammered here.

If Odeon or anyone can muster up the cash, which they probably can't, picking up the Picturehouse chain would be seriously marvellous.

Looks like the reports weren't confirmed: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/oct/04/cineworld-t...

Now it says "considering" and "temporarily".

Hmm

I had no idea Cineworld bought them. I loved the Picturehouses.

I always loved The Ritzy

Note that Cineworld took on a bunch of debt to fuel expansion last year: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/06/15/curtain-fall...

Even in a pre-coronavirus parallel universe, it was a move that looked hugely risky for a company carrying a mountain of debt after its £2.7bn purchase of Regal Cinemas in the US just a year earlier.

Greidinger, it is fair to say, has not been shy about using leverage to expand. The takeover of Regal left it with debts of £2.3bn and £2.8bn of lease commitments. Yet here he was proposing to take on another £1.7bn of loans so it could gatecrash the Canadian market.

Cineworld was in the process of acquiring Cineplex, the largest theatre chain in Canada, when the pandemic happened. They want to walk away from the contract and Cineplex in suing them. IIRC, the contract specifically says pandemics are not a valid reason for termination, so this should be interesting to watch.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/cineworld-takeover-cineplex...

At worst, Cineworld pays a penalty for breach of contract, but that will be another debt collected in bankruptcy.

I'm the guy who automated my home theatre using PHP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc8K6lg7Ag8

I tried to get it to be exactly like the movie cinemas I grew up in right before the multiplex and megaplex trend took off.

I've always loved movie theatres. I've always wanted to own several real ones, but even though it's what my heart wants, my brain always wins. The economics are tough, the barrier to entry is high, and Cineplex is a ruthless cutthroat competitor.

I was a big fan of Famous Players but always found Cineplex (Canada) to be an extraction business which runs its locations into the ground. That's exactly what they've done to Famous Players.

Landmark Cinemas (Kinepolis) is our second biggest chain, but small compared to Cineplex. They have a young CEO and corporate team and they seem to be giving Cineplex a run for their money.

I won't shed a tear if Cineplex falters and needs to be broken up or shed locations. I'm just hoping that it lowers the barrier to entry so some young entrepreneurs can take a stab innovating in this industry and moving it forward.

Nice! Do you have a write up of how you put that home theatre together? I haven't realised it until now but the darkness is really what makes it and I'm curious about the costs.

Not currently, but I've thought about opening a blog to talk about it. However, since my chances of opening a real movie theatre are pretty low, I'd ideally like to commercialize this at some point. It probably requires a rewrite in a language I can compile to protect the source.

This one is really interesting to me since it's an extreme case (due to the building structure) of "if they leave, what's your plan for that space, exactly?". Could they survive by firing lots of people and basically hibernating for a few months / a year?

I wouldn't be surprised if in a couple of years there will be a lot of suspiciously-cinema-shaped gyms and family play centers everywhere.

There are already many cinema shaped Bingo halls in the UK.

This one went through quite a few changes! cinema->glass factory->storage warehouse->bingo hall->snooker club->restaurant->cinema

http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/16613

And at least one Weatherspoons (chain pub). Sad when that one shut down - though it's possible the new multiplex had the same owners.

Neither of those are sparkling businesses during the pandemic

They don’t have to be. The buildings will still be there, it’s the debt securing them (and equity, depending on the capital structure) that’ll eat the losses until they’re repurposed at some point in the future.

Assuming they’re secured and maintained enough to avoid vandalism and damage. Once water/mold start getting into abandoned buildings there’s only one option left eventually.

Odeon Cinemas have been experimenting with operating as Nightingale Courts. I don't think this gives them nearly enough money to stay alive, especially seeing the poor condition of existing court buildings in the UK.

https://planetradio.co.uk/borders/local/news/jurors-at-the-m...

https://www.societyofeditors.org/soe_news/uk-trials-conducte...

My ex-employer bought a cinema and are planning to knock it down and build an office on the site[1]. I left before hearing any plans about it, not sure if they always planned to knock it down or somehow convert it.

[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-52813604

They won't be able to service their debt.

Long-term debt would indeed be a problem. I would think it'd be unlikely they could go back to the markets & put up additional shares for sale, since investors would want some assurance that patrons will return to theaters once the pandemic restrictions have been eased. [0]

Whether they can pay their operational debt (rent, utilities & property taxes mostly, since they won't be paying employees or suppliers) would depend on their cash balance. Eight months into this, and their cash has got to be running pretty low.

[0] I for one will not. I wasn't happy with the megaplex movie-going experience anyway, and there isn't an Alamo Drafthouse in Charlotte.

Long-term debt is going to be the ultimate problem. Commercial property is already looking very rocky, and it's going to have its 2008 moment within 18 months or so.

IMO this is a major social shift, not a temporary distraction from business as usual.

I’ve seen a few repurposed as comedy clubs. Ironically brings them closer to their original role as proper theatres.

You don’t get the all-day money making you do with a cinema (though plenty of daytime screenings are very empty) but you can serve booze and proper food, so there’s a middle ground of profit to be had, I suppose.

A ton of these are like 10-20 screen locations I imagine. Would be a hell of a comedy club

Yeah I think the giant out of town multiplexes are screwed. But they’re probably also a lot cheaper to redevelop into something totally different.

Stand-up comedy doesn't have a fraction of the audience, sadly, and many cinemas already serve booze and proper food, even going as far as to-your-seat-service. Everything is ruined, isn't it?

How do you pay your debts while hibernating?

You take on new debts and try to persuade creditors you'll be paying them off real soon now.

This isn't snark - it's literally the new normal in many sectors.

Yeah, if the creditor has a choice between (maybe) getting paid at some point in the future or definitely not getting paid at all, some will opt for the maybe.

It would be different if they could resell the property, but in a market where no one is buying, it's a different story.

The sad thing is that Cineworld (in the UK anyway) pretty much forced the consolidation of the market by rapidly expanding in the 90's and 00's followed by selling tickets at a loss. This resulted in lots of cinemas going bust after which they increased prices.

So now many towns and cities will have no nearby cinema.

Consolidation or not. I think local independent cinemas have been a dying breed for many years.

They're a very niche interest - only really viable in student towns and areas with a proportion of comfortably off arts-loving middle classes.

But TBH cinema has become a bit of an ordeal. It's such a weird experience - simultaneously sterile and massively overhyped in almost every possible way.

I'd started enjoying theatre more because that has a real magic - possibly because clever physical stage effects and real people acting in front of you engage the imagination in a way a projection can't.

But that's not any more likely to survive this than cinemas are. Although low budget theatre productions are more likely to restart more quickly because they only really need a large empty room, some lighting, and some props.

In this plague world, its odd for folks gather at a common place to share breath and popcorn, all to watch a film at a schedule time together but in total silence and not interacting at all.

Maybe its time to lower the curtain on the old theatre model of media.

Maybe also, we bring back drive-ins, I still love drive-ins 100x more than theaters, but alas moved where there aren't any right now.

That would indeed be fucking stupid if we had a pandemic of the plague, which kills up to 70% of the infected. Even though people behave as if it were higher, COVID IFR is only ~0.5%.

If you are already seriously ill and contract COVID, it will often finish you off. The movie theater business was quite ill going into 2020 and then ...

I must admit to being a bit mystified by the apparent flourishing the theatre industry has had in the last decade or so. The only thing I could see keeping the cinemas expanding was a steady stream of comic book based movies being released, and history would indicate that this specific genre would go out of fashion eventually.

The theatre experience never held a lot of allure for me in the first place and while it definitely improved with the transition to stadium seating and digital projectors the home experience has improved exponentially in both the quality of viewing experience and the ease of obtaining content.

This move all but guarantees that Bad Boys for Life will be the highest grossing domestic film of 2020 and, for the first time since the silent film era, a non-American film will be the highest grossing film of the year (The Eight Hundred).

https://www.the-numbers.com/movies/#tab=year

To nitpick, that list has at least three British films pop up in the latter half of the 20th century (Goldfinger, Diamonds are Forever and Moonraker). Relaxing to "non-Anglosphere" is still very notable though.

It's a pandemic. Why the fuck aren't they already closed?!

Oh that's right - the debt black hole that everyone must find ways to keep feeding, lest they be devoured themselves. Wouldn't it be nice if our economy allowed businesses to graciously survive a shutdown?

Lots of people in this thread are dismissive of big cineplexes and seem to be happy they're struggling. Maybe these companies are ruthless and evil, but to all the people who are thinking "yeah I just watch the movies in my basement and it's better" - I think you're missing the point.

I've lived in multiple cities where the movie theater wasn't just about watching movies. The racial makeup of my area is overwhelmingly white, but when I go to movies easily half the people in the theater are people of color. It's a constructive way for teenagers and younger people to spend their time and hang out, particularly if they come from poorer neighborhoods with limited options, or they have many siblings at home and they need a reprieve.

With the theaters, schools and other obvious young-person activities closed, petty crime where I live is way up, mostly being committed by young people of color. I can't say I'm surprised - without constructive things to do the young people will still find amusement. Young affluent teenagers have video games and entire basements to play them in. Poorer kids don't have those options.

Personally, I wish there'd be less glee over this and other closures. I was never a fan of the term "privilege" - but rich white tech people really do need a lesson in empathy.

The big cineplexes also tend to charge a lot more than smaller chains or independent cinemas. Sometimes 5x more. The ideal outcome here is that the chain collapses, but the building itself passes into community ownership or is taken over and run by a small local company.

They could try begging to Congress, like the airlines.

OMG, thats it, the answer is to merge cinemas and airlines into one venture - so if you want to see the latest movies, you have to see them on a plane

it's due to the James Bond delay, and it's only a temporary closure...

in other words, it's no time to die.

(ducks)

And bond movie delayed to allow more greater chance of cinema returns yet there might not be many cinemas left!

It has to be torture for theaters now. Basically zero revenue for months while all of the bills and debts accumulate. Studios are quietly walking away through endless delays. Everyone will make less money in the future...home streamers don't pay per-seat

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