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Comment by chki | Hacker News Reader

I would strongly disagree. My personal language learning experience so far has been immersion as the only way to go. Constantly hearing and reading a new language will teach you that language. Learning the grammar is basically useless because when talking or writing the end goal is not to think about it anyway. Maybe a bit of a controversial statement but I think learning grammar in a formal language learning setting is a relict of the past and mainly exists to assert the reasoning behind formal learning itself.

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I would strongly disagree with that. Your supposed dichotomy between immersion and grammar is just not the case. You both learn by immersion and also have a look at the grammar. Just hearing and reading will leave gaps in your understanding and have you build weird habits. You trying to paint it as an "either or" is a relic of the past.

But you almost certainly have gaps and misunderstandings in your native language too. I’ve learnt more than one language, almost entirely through immersion, and my grammar is pretty good. But I’d say if you want to do it well, you have to ask people questions. I was primarily talking to colleagues and friends while working overseas, and I’d say things wrong all the time, and get corrected, and ask questions constantly when I didn’t understand something. The real issue people have with immersion is that you have to be prepared to make a fool of yourself all day, every day, for quite a long time before you really start to get the hang of it.

The really significant upside that I think people tend to gloss over is that my pronunciation is pretty much perfect, because I’d learn to say things by just repeating what I’d heard. On the phone people can’t tell I’m not a native speaker.

I’m in the immersion camp, but give me a table of Spanish conjugations and it’s a million times better than having to figure it out one word at a time.

Additionally, for really foreign languages (e.g. English vs Chinese) knowing in what order to place words and whether words are needed at all is of great help.

Both parts are needed.

I disagree. It is going to take longer in immersion without grammar than with grammar. Knowing grammar helps you know what to expect and helps you form your sentences because you know what sort of things to put next. It lets you pick up on these things way faster, and the faster you know these things, the sooner you make habits of it.

It isn't like you think about grammar forever.

And by the way: I had formal language training, for adults. Immersive, even: I am in the target country, spent 15 hours a week in class with other immigrants, and was taught by a native speaker. Most of the learning was introducing new word groups and practicing speaking and listening. A little bit was grammar, though, for specifically the reason I listed.

I think you really want both. My english only became good through immersion, but high school providing the grammar base was immensely helpful to learn it properly.

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