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Comment by phobosanomaly | Hacker News Reader

Holy smokes, you're not wrong. Seems a bit out of proportion.

"Federal Bureau of Prisons director Norman Carlson argued for the creation of a new type of facility where the most dangerous, uncontrollable inmates could be isolated from correction officers and other prisoners for security and safety.

Under his guidance, Marion Penitentiary was operated in "permanent lockdown" for the next two decades. It became a model for the design of ADX as a control unit prison. Carlson said that such a prison would hold criminals desperate enough to murder corrections officers or other inmates in the hopes of being sentenced to death.

He argued that as draconian as these measures were, they were the only way to deal with inmates who have "absolutely no concern for human life.""

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence

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Solitary confinement in general is out of proportion, particularly for extended periods. In my opinion it should be a violation of the Eighth amendment and they need to shut down Florence, but few people fight for it because it's full of really wicked humans. Important to remember they are still humans and torturing them is not okay.

That being said I also think that the life sentencing was probably appropriate considering he started the silk road as a fully grown man, so it's a clear reflection of his morals and empathy. It's difficult to think about how many addictions, overdoses, and so forth that he helped to enable, in addition to assaults and murders (silk road sold weapons and services). Not saying that it wouldn't have happened without him, but certainly enabling these things to be trafficked does not provide net positive to the world.

Some people are kept in solitary for their own protection. People who hurt children tend not to make it long in prison. I went to high school with a kid who murdered both of his parents, and he was put in solitary mostly for his protection.

It's more of a sad state of American prisons where crimes like this are common and seemingly unstoppable in US prisons.

As sort of an extension of that, the fact that prison rape is socially accepted as just a part of going to prison is absolutely terrifying to me.

"In 2001, Human Rights Watch estimated that at least 4.3 million inmates had been raped while incarcerated in the United States."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape_in_the_United_Stat...

> but certainly enabling these things to be trafficked does not provide net positive to the world.

You really wanna go there? Seriously? Nobody forces you to use drugs. It doesn't even harm anyone else directly. He didn't even sell drugs directly, he offered a marketplace for others to sell drug on. What about pawn shops? Should we lock em all up in super max prisons for providing weapons to people? I mean here the intent is at least directly to harm people other than the client, while with drugs its just to harm clients.

Net positive... LOL Name a single politican that does provide a net positive to the world. How about Trump? What about locking him up? Did he provide a net positive to the world? He has a list of crimes that could wrap buildings in documents, however he is president of the US, which somehow manages to kill more people in a year than this guy could have killed indirectly in a life-time. But hey, yeah lock em up!

> so it's a clear reflection of his morals and empathy.

Oh is it? So what now? We lock up everything who doesn't have your high moral standards in a federal super max? Oh wait, your morals seem a bit off actually. I think you are kindof insane. How about locking you up? Do you provide a net positive to the world? Probably not. Wait, let me just call 911 so they can lock you away for life.

Although I am 100% in agreement with your stance on the issue, I do feel that you are far too emotionally invested.

Your comment reads like you care what random strangers say on the internet. You shouldn't.

Despite the fact that you are right, others will not agree with you, and in fact may not even give a shit about the issue at all. They're humans, and every human is different. That's why we're so damn interesting.

The more you emotionally invest in what these people have to say, the more you will be dragged down into the abyss by them. Remember, that's not their abyss, that's your abyss. You created it by being so bothered by them.

This is my take on it, and if you have a different opinion, dude feel free to share I'm happy to hear! You have to approach everything on the internet as if it were an LSAT question you have to argue from an opposing viewpoint to pass the test. Make the best argument you possibly can, but don't be emotionally invested in it!

Again, I'm on your side. But I want you to hang around for the revolution, instead of having a heart-attack before we storm the gated communities.

> Should we lock em all up in super max prisons for providing weapons to people?

I said we should shut down Florence.

> Net positive... LOL Name a single politican that does provide a net positive to the world. How about Trump?

I have no idea why you have such an overpowering desire to inject your fascination with Trump into this discussion.

> Oh is it? So what now? We lock up everything who doesn't have your high moral standards in a federal super max?

This is the second time you seem to have misread my post. I said we should shut down Florence.

> certainly enabling these things to be trafficked does not provide net positive to the world.

Yes, it does, because the alternative is the moronic drug war strategy that's been followed for the last 50 years.

The first part, yes I 100% agree. The second part, I'll pull into a deeper discussion because I'm curious and I want to bounce some ideas off of you.

The argument for online drug marketplaces, as I understand it, is that it reduces violence since there is no longer a physical 'turf war' component. So, if people were going to buy drugs anyway, this offers a safe, nonviolent space in which to do it. It avoids an environment where dealers are shooting each other and innocent bystanders.

With regards to violence, just because Russ was silly enough to think that you could hire a real hitman over the internet doesn't mean that it's a real thing that happens.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just want to fling some spaghetti and see what sticks.

To be fair, as has been discussed elsewhere in this thread (and my own personal experience) was that it opened up this kind of marketplace to a lot of people who weren't buying these kinds of drugs before, due to precisely the risks you mention.

I guess there probably aren't too many statistics about the users of Silk Road though - so I'm not sure I can back up that claim. :)

> That being said I also think that the life sentencing was probably appropriate considering he started the silk road as a fully grown man, so it's a clear reflection of his morals and empathy.

I believe the purpose of prison should be to rehabilitate people, and put them on track to become contributing members of society.

This statement shows a viewpoint that prison sentences should be given as a way to separate bad people from the rest of society.

All humans are capable of growth and change. It’s better for society as a whole if we can enable this growth and then allow them to return to society as full contributing members. The attitude of prison being a punishment or a deterrent is a root cause of a lot of problems in our criminal justice system, such as very long punishments, poor prison conditions, and a lack of rehabilitation programs.

This is why I was so heartened by Gavin Newsom's signing of AB2147 to allow inmate firefighters to become full firefighter/EMTs after release.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/912193742/california-bill-cle...

It really, really seems like a long time coming, and now a lot of guys/gals who made some bad choices in their life, for the first time have a clear path to building a better life for themselves.

In the coming years, as California's forestry management changes to include more aggressive management and controlled burns, these guys will be the backbone of keeping thousands and thousands of people as well as their homes safe.

I agree with you. I just wanted to focus my comment specifically on the topic of solitary confinement. At present moment such correctional and rehabilitational systems do not exist, so unfortunately yes prison sentences should be given as a way to separate dangerous people from society, while concurrently we need to be developing better rehabilitation and correctional services to make these old methods obsolete.

> All humans are capable of growth and change.

No, they aren't, and people die every day due to government's tolerance of such elements.

(Not saying this is the case with the DPR case)

You seem to take for granted that allowing people to buy and sell drugs anonymously at a distance is necessarily worse than gangs, cartels, and street violence related to drug selling in the real world. Reconsider.

I dont get why. If you want the upside of businesses of scale (profits) why would you not get the downside of criminality at scale?

This is a moralistic version of privatize the gains and socialize the losses.

Im not even a big law and order guy, but the "go easy, boys will be boys" take seems baseless.

The isolation is to keep inmates from murdering guards ("most dangerous, uncontrollable inmates could be isolated from correction officers and other prisoners for security and safety"). Dread Pirate Roberts is a keyboard jockey with no priors. It seems unlikely he will attempt to murder guards.

Ross Ulbricht definitely owes a debt to society, but I don't think he falls into the category of "the most dangerous, uncontrollable inmates."

Is this guy going to stab a CO because they disrespected him?

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