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Comment by aaron695 | Hacker News Reader

He referrers to himself as a very old man, so that's their preferred pronoun -

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245134641?searchT...

It's possible they had to do that because of the times. But where is the evidence? Why is this not discussed in an encyclopedia we can look up? Do we need an uncensored Wikipedia now?

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I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the perceived hostility in your posts is accidental. Here are two tips that will help you avoid that unintentional impression and will allow you to escape the downvotes you are receiving.

Transgender identity has changed a lot over the last several decades. You therefore shouldn't expect someone who lived before that to have used the same vocabulary and labels we use today. You also shouldn't force them into a binary gender bucket. There is a wide variety of transgender identities and it isn't exclusively about going from man to woman or vice versa.

When you aren't sure of a person's preferred gender identity and pronouns, you are probably better off using general terms like they/them/their as the Wikipedia article does. You should never use "it" like you did in your first post unless specifically told to do so. It is can be viewed as dehumanizing.

> You should never use "it"

'It' referrers to the situation, not the person. I changed the grammar a little to try and fix this.

>There is no reference if it was a man who became a woman or vice versa

Maybe that also isn't intentional and is merely poor grammar, but that certainly reads as if you are using "it" to refer to the person.

Since we're on a grammar tangent already, as a non-native speaker, I thought "was it a man who did this" was a valid construction. Am I in error?

That is fine, but keep in mind that a valid answer to that question can be “No, it was a cat that did it.”.

If you are already sure it was a person and wanted to be specific, you could rephrase that as “Was the person who did this a man?”.

(The answer to that might of course be “I don't know, they looked rather androgynous.” or the more down to earth “Dunno. Couldn't tell if it was a bloke or a gal.”.)

I wrote a more detailed answer to GP: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24576616, but basically: yes that's totally natural, but in edited writing / speech sometimes should be avoided for clarity reasons. But I didn't blink twice at the comment myself.

I read it as "it" being the situation. e.g., "was it a child who painted this?"

it isn't bad grammar, though you could argue it's poor writing because it's confusing. it's using a feature of english called it-extraposition. some examples here: https://www1.icsi.berkeley.edu/~kay/bcg/extrap.html

basically, it-xp lets you delay a constituent in certain circumstances using "it". sometimes this is required to make a sentence grammatical.

    "(What to do next) is not clear"
    "It is not clear (what to do next)"

    *"Was (who painted this) a child?"
    "Was it a child (who painted this)?"

We can combine this feature with clefting the end of the sentence to make something that seems to refer to a person by "it", but actually refers to an elided constituent:

    Discourse: "I don't know the gender of the writer"

    R1: *"Was (who wrote this) a man?" (can't have wh-phrase here, needs it-xp)

    R2: "Was it a man (who wrote this)?" (OK, but the last part is redundant. Discourse already includes we are talking about a writer. Grice's maxims suggest we will usually drop it.)

    R3: "Was it a man?" (looks weird, but sounds perfectly normal in context)

I'm a linguist / syntactician by training, but also nonbinary and use they/them, so I have some skin in this game. I think the GP was being obtuse, maybe purposely, but not malicious.

Fair enough. It might have been the usage combined with the rest of that user's posts, which seemed to have an aggressive tone, that caused me to read it the way I did.

I will also say it is worth the tiny bit of extra effort to make pronoun use clear when dealing with members of the trans people. That community already faces so many challenges, accidentally offending them with our laziness is a mistake we shouldn't make.

You got a lot of flak, but I was similarly confused and mildly annoyed. It does make a difference, especially at that time, if a woman lives as a man or vice versa. I could only deduce that at that time there were very few female lawyers. (Looked it up: In the US Arabella Mansfield was the first in 1869)

At least Wikipedia has a copy before degenderisation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thomas_Baty&oldid...

They're notable for writing the book they wrote at the time they wrote it. The book is notable in that trans people are normalized instead of being throwaways or villains. The book is quite early in my community's history, and its author is notable on that basis alone. Your dismissiveness and singleminded focus on their gender is unbecoming, and frankly kinda weird. You're not even discussing the book here, but complaining about the style of an adjacent article.

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