Neurotoxic peptides isolated from venom of giant Australian stinging tree | Hacker News Reader

Neurotoxic peptides isolated from venom of giant Australian stinging tree

nytimes.com

81 pointsbookofjoe58 comments

Reminds me of the velvet bean found in parts of Africa and Asia. It too has hairs and is maddeningly itchy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucuna_pruriens

(On the last day of the term in junior secondary school some naughty kid dusted it on all the seats in the class. I can still see everyone writing in pain. Unfortunately, we'd forgotten about our ordeal at the start of the new term and sat on our seats; only to repeat the painful dance.)

Edit: a lady's blogpost about her encounter with the "devil bean" https://dazeetah.wordpress.com/2013/05/21/my-devils-bean-exp...

>Neurotoxic peptides from the venom of the giant Australian stinging tree [full article]

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/38/eabb8828

> These neurotoxins localize specifically to the stinging hairs and are miniproteins of 4 kDa, whose 3D structure is stabilized in an inhibitory cystine knot motif, a characteristic shared with neurotoxins found in spider and cone snail venoms. Our results provide an intriguing example of inter-kingdom convergent evolution of animal and plant venoms with shared modes of delivery, molecular structure, and pharmacology.

This post made me think of something kind of tangentally related. The youtube channel Thought Emporium shows just how easy it is to genetically modify stuff nowadays. It only costs a few thousand dollars to make a yeast that makes proteins from other animals. Why don't they make genetically modified yeast that produces the venom from snakes and such so that antivenom could be made en masse?

Because your assertion that it cost a few thousand dollars to make a yeast that makes proteins from other animals is inexact. You can make some proteins but not all. And that for different reasons. One is that some proteins require complex machinery to be folded and modified after their synthesis (and we still don't know everything about these) and they may not be present in the new producing organism. Some proteins are toxic for the new producing organism. And then modifying an organism especially for large proteins can be really hard.

Also because developing the equipment and process for purification of such proteins from the rest of the cell body can cost millions of dollars.

Typically there is a whole manufacturing pipeline that has to exist for precursors etc, so it might not integrate with bacterial physiology?

Snake venom is a cocktail of hundreds to thousands of different proteins, ranging widely in molecule size. It would be quite a feat to get yeast to produce all of those at once.

As others have said, venom isn’t a single protein, so you’d have to make a bunch of different proteins.

And even then you’d need to still inject into an animal to make the antibodies.

That begs the question, why not just make the antibody directly? I assume because there are so few snake bites it’s not worth all the dollars and effort when the current system provides enough antivenom.

> Why don't they make genetically modified yeast that produces the venom from snakes

Because that would be a catastrophic mistake

If is not difficult enough to fight airborne coronavirus, imagine how suffering and trouble would cause living in a world were just breathing it would kill you in minutes. Or where the bakeries could be silently contaminated with something that turns wheat floor into snake poison. Cereals are the basis of our diet. Poisoning it would top the list of most idiotic things done by humans, for sure.

Australian here. You can find these in rainforest areas. I can confirm from teenage years, they really do result in an excruciating, fiery pain that seems to get worse if you rub it. Don't walk around in the bush in shorts and short-sleeve shirts. Also, there's regular stinging nettles. Don't touch that either.

It seems like the whole continent of Australia is just filled with dangerous things that cause excruciating pain or death. Irukandji jellies, weird looking birds that kick you to death... even the world's only venomous mammal. A friend's cousin visiting from Australia years ago would not put down his soda can without covering it with paper or something and when I asked why, he said there is some kind of bug back home that flies into your drink and kills you. I hope I'll make it there one day because it looks so beautiful, but I'm going to be nervous the whole time.

You forgot about white sharks, Super venous spiders and snakes, salt water crocodiles, wild dog packs, big oil filled forests (great for mega fires), the desert and the worst of all Drop Bears.

But jokes aside, it's not that bad. Lived there at the most remote big city in the country and it was not a problem at all.

I still beat the crap out of my shoes against the ground before putting my feet in them.

Loved this song about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrRAO_vG_K4

Another way to see it is that a lot of dangerous animals are missing and were erradicated in other parts of the planet, from European rhinos to tigers in temperate forests, Australia is very creative in terms of poison makers, this is true, but America has tiny letally poisonous frogs, trees that release a sap that corrodes flesh and have a sweet fruit that will kill you later, and grizzly bears that can measure more than 3m when standing erect.

If I'm not wrong there are similar species in South America mountain's rainforests. I had seen a photo some years ago, with similar berries, and linking yummy looking jelly-pink berries with stinging nettles was very shocking.

> It seems like the whole continent of Australia is just filled with dangerous things

Everywhere pretty much except in the cities, which is about where 90% of people in Australia live.

Yeah most of them are easily avoidable. Polar bears are scary, they'll hunt you down for sport.

The tree is called Gympie gympie in Australia. As an immigrant in Australia, my white housemates educated me diligently about the dangers of hiking in the Aussie bush. Except for drop bears every bit of education I got is true! :D

How is the fact that your housemates are white relevant? How does race come into this?

If the user would have added sentence flavor to another portion of their post would you still query the relevance of the flavor? For example, if they specified “Perth” in “As an immigrant in Australia” would you ask “How is the fact that you are in Perth, Australia relevant? How does city location come into this?

No, but there's not a growing acceptance of discrimination against people from Perth.

Speak for yourself.... /s

The question makes sense because, for years, children in the united states were taught that it was noble and right to try and judge people’s ideas based on their sense and merit- without regard to the skin color of the speaker.

To people raised under that philosophy, it can be disconcerting to realize that now it has become proper to judge everything only after first assessing the skin color of who said it. This isnt as shocking when someone makes a statement related to race, but the point is really driven home when the issue at hand is a tree.

What is “sentence flavor?” I’ve never heard the term. You seem to be using it to justify the inclusion of irrelevant details as if that makes a sentence “taste” differently. Well, irrelevant details don’t make for very interesting writing and usually people don’t scatter words over their sentences like bacon bits over a salad unless they’re writing terrible fiction.

So maybe the word is relevant. It’s not obvious to me what the relevance is, so asking seems pretty logical. Otherwise a reader is forced to conclude that it somehow has to do with white, presumably Australian stereotypes.

Likewise, if Perth is included it clues the reader into a more specific area which might tell us something or not, depending on our pre-existing knowledge of Perth. No reader is going to conclude that the detail Perth was added merely for “flavor” and has no other significance. They might not have asked even if ignorant, because they might’ve made their own assumptions (e.g. this is an area where the trees can be found), but they wouldn’t assume it was a meaningless detail.

And yes, I think I might have asked about relevance if the poster had said, “My roommates, while wearing purple t-shirts, told me...”

When you add in the baggage that comes with race and racial stereotypes are you really surprised anyone asked? You don’t even have to be offended to not understand why race was included.

Thanks for your response. I think I tried to be too creative and should have just said descriptive words or adjectives. You make a good point on the baggage that race and racial stereotypes have - that is why I asked the question! I wanted to stimulate conversation on using color as a descriptive term and if the users question came from the sensitivity (from the baggage and stereotypes you mentioned) of mentioning color, the fact it’s the only descriptor, or a combination of both. You also make a good point with the purple shirt example but wonder if that oddity would have really compelled a response. My question came from genuine curiosity and desire for discussion and hoped it would be received us such!

It could be that he thought it was interesting for them to know about locol biomes because they weren't aboriginal? Idk, but I think it's better to give people the benefit of the doubt when there's room, rather than aggressively pushing a point you feel they may not get. I think a little more assumption of innocence until proven guilty would go a long way to depolarize society.

I probably should stop commenting on these forums. I meant Aussie housemates when I wrote white housemates. I didn't have any ill-intentions while writing it. My only intention was to share the common name of the plant!

You're fine dude, unfortunately we're coming up on the US election so a lot of folks have put way to many chips on the table in regards to any reference to ethnicity or race being an outrageous thing to say. The list of unspeakable words and topics seems to have been growing rapidly the last few years so you shouldn't sweat it, most people who go out of their way to take offense actually don't care and just want to clutch pearls in public.

Thanks mate. You've to be too careful these days I reckon. My housemates and I had loads of fun calling each other names. They would call me curry muncher and I called them unseasoned chicken wings and we laughed it off. I don't see any problem there. They've helped me whenever I need anything and I'd do the same for them. I think that matters more than any of these new age safe space thing. But I guess not everyone has thick skin! Cheers, dude.

Good humor about it is a mark of ‘cosmopolitanism.‘

In a large business building in New York City whenever I’d go down to the mail room there would be couriers and maintainence men hanging around. Each a different ethnicity and shade of color.

Most of the conversations I heard there were from them trading insults in friendly fashion. Most of the jokes were ethnic stereotypes.

It offered them a chance to connect with each other. Out of this play, tolerance is made over time.

The drama here is not from people asking for clarification. It’s from the people who are somehow bothered by people asking for clarification.

You’ve now finally offered some clarification, although honestly I still don’t really have any idea what you meant. But your initial response was to act as if the very act of asking the question somehow victimized you. Your original post lamented “PC culture” but no one actually criticized your post and you didn’t provide the asked for clarification.

Yes, true. I didn't understand it as well. that's why I deleted it.

Well compared to most, Americans are uniquely afraid about making even innocuous racial references, let alone racial banter or joking around between friends. So expect a lot of that since this forum is mostly populated by Americans.

jp0d, are you non-white? I suspect that many (US) readers may assume that as an immigrant to Australia you are white, having immigrated perhaps from the US or UK, which would make it odd to also name your roommates as such. When in reality most immigrants to Australia are from south- or east-Asian countries (as I'm guessing you may be), making the shorthand "white = natural-born, non-aboriginal Aus citizen" totally natural.

Sorry if I'm off-base… just my guess that this is a miscommunication stemming from the US-centricity of these forums. It's natural after all for a reader to put themself in the shoes of the writer (as did I on first reading of your comment), which can occasionally lead to misunderstandings when race, gender, etc. do not match.

Thank you for the explanation. Yes, I'm brown. :) Although I know a little bit about US politics, I don't know much. This was clearly a case of misunderstanding on my part. Cheers.

don't sweat it. over here in the US, we're still paddling in an age where racism and genetic (perceived) superiority are making an ugly comeback to mainstream politics. you'll have to forgive the ones who are on edge about it.

Thanks mate. :)

Somewhat related : microscopy footage of how stinging nettles inject poison is pretty mindlowing

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rduoN53J7MU&t=1s

Cool video, but it doesn't appear to show any stinging nettles injecting poison?

Yeah, I rewatched that, it seems like I was mixing two videos in my head, this one and another that was specifically about how the tips released the irritant. I guess poison was not really the correct word either.

Wait, even the TREES sting in Australia????

Reminds of the Red Death Daccas and Irritable Palms from the hyper-futuristic Roguelike Caves of Qud.

Yeah, think of it like Nettle. Except painful enough to cause horses to jump of cliffs.

Read the wikipedia article of them, its great. I love the part that recommends applying dilute hydrochloric acid to the exposed skin to dissolve the needles.

I wonder if these trees are intentionally used as a perimeter protection around houses or other buildings.

> I wonder if these trees are intentionally used as a perimeter protection around houses or other buildings.

Which, in a typical lawyer-happy US context, would raise interesting questions about liabilities.

It would raise questions about liability anywhere. People generally dislike e.g. the building of deadly traps that kids or others who are unaware can wander into.

The stinging trees "can grow taller than 100 feet, are found throughout the rain forests of eastern Australia" so aren't booby traps, which have to be obscure/hidden.

Have you ever traveled through the southwestern US? Ocotillo, Mexican Fencepost cactus, cholla bushes, and other plants with wicked thorns are all used as border plants.

The story I heard about these was that during WW2 American GIs stationed in Australia were tricked by the locals into using the leaves as a replacement for toilet paper, with predictably unfortunate results.

Presumably one realizes their mistake the moment they touch the leaves, long before they can reach around. So really you could tell anything to an unsuspecting victim just to get them to touch it. The "toilet paper" spin might be there to give the tale a humorous effect.

From what I've heard, the locals didn't trick them. One captain apparently had to do his business in the bush and used the leaves to clean himself. He was just unaware.

For context, there is a completely different plant affectionately known as "bushman's toilet paper" (an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brachyglottis_repanda). It grows more or less in the same places as the Gympie Gympie (the plant referred to in this article).

An easy mistake to make, and a very, very dangerous one.

> “One very small protein found in both plants made mice lick and nip at the spots where it was injected.”

Well that’s not very nice is it. Pain research on mice that is.

https://archive.is/LGboo

Great news for torturers across the globe! /s

If is nice, big, soft, and is still here after a while, is poisonous.

If there are really nasty thorns, and the plant seems to come from a lovecraft history, may be edible, specially if you can hear a munching sound chorus around.

Green, mimetic caterpillars on it... could be edible. Bold, brilliantly colored caterpillars on it... probably poisonous.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com