Hacker News Reader

Comment by mrweasel | Hacker News Reader

Out of curiosity: Could an Indian of a lower caste change their name, or be named differently at birth, as to "fake" their way into a different caste?

View on HN

This is why Sikhs are supposed to all have the same surname (Singh for men, Kaur for women). Sikhism has always been strongly opposed to the caste system- see, for instance, their tradition of offering free food to anyone who wants it as long as they will eat with everyone else there.

According to a Sikh friend, in practice, Sikhs are still aware of caste- in fact, Sikhs from a high-caste background are more likely to keep their family's original surname and add Singh/Kaur as a middle name.

That might explain some things... I had an Indian colleague once who used to tell "Sikh jokes" that he claimed were his cultural equivalent of "Blond jokes".

They are closer to the "An Irishman and a Scotsman …" genre. Part of the reason there are so many Sardar jokes (that's what they are called) is that they (the Sardars) are very sporting and secure people. They don't mind being a butt of these jokes and start many of those themselves. My roommate (who was a Sardar, equivalently, a Sikh) used to say he would keep two glasses, one filled with water and another empty, in the night on his bedstead because in the middle of the night he might be thirsty, but then he might not be. Things like these are essentially baits to encourage such jokes.

But back to the PP a big part of Sikhism's break from Hinduism was the rejection of casteism. So it is built in. Someone who is more familiar will be able to elaborate more. What I have heard is that its root lies in agrarian anti-caste movements.

yea but they will never understand the cultural nuances that it takes to become part of the "in" group, and from reading these articles, it seems that "in" group nepotism is rampant in some places. A caste is not just a name, its a cultural legacy you inherit from your parents, their network and society. Even if you ignore the name part, there are some hidden advantages that are conferred to people of higher castes that probably can't be taken away.

At some point, wouldn't it be difficult for people to tell? A person who grew up outside of India will only have a passing understanding of this nuance anyway, because they would not have been regularly exposed to the other group, so their entire understanding will be from what is passed to them by their parents. And the next generation will have next to zero understanding.

Plus, those nuances will probably get erased by adoption of the customs of their new country. Like they begin to prefer local adaptations of their cuisine, they speak like kids from their schools, etc.

Maybe. The slave class in the US was in theory gone by 1870 (I don't care to look up the end of the civil war. 150 years latter a lot of people still know who is a descendant of that class. Somehow, something, fueled that through several generations.

Yeah, but it was pretty obvious who were the former slaves. There was no "nuance" about it.

When the tell-tale signs aren't physical, but small, subtle difference, they are easier to erase. You can change your name, religion, what you eat, and how you talk. So if those are the signs of your ancestors' caste, they probably won't last for generations in the west unless there's a conscious effort to preserve those distinctions.

One thing people clearly step around discussing is that the darkness of your skin is literally one of the main UC signifiers. Lighter skinned individuals are assumed to be UC.

So yes, this is a lot like racism in America.

I'm not sure how it fits in, but it's interesting that the first Black American president was not a descendant of that class.

a lot of this was legally enforced until the 1970s. see e.g. the Racial Integrity Act in Virginia for one example. the state had a legally-codified definition of race ("one-drop rule") and put a lot of bureaucratic effort into keeping records of everyone's race, so that they could enforce segregation and bans on interracial marriage.

if Reconstruction had succeeded and Jim Crow had never happened, who knows what the salience of this would be today?

Not everywhere though. Northern states didn't have nearly as much, but even in middle of nowhere small towns where no blacks even live people still know about it.

yes, Indian Americans generally don't care too much about caste, and their children will care even less.

Unfortunately, no. My wife's best friend is Hindu from Upper Caste. (Brahim) she was born in the United States.

She always been so liberal and open minded. Most of her friends are Muslims. She is barely religious.

But whenever it comes relationships, she brings up caste. She married into upper caste, she was very worried about caste of the guy. If her sister is dating a someone from a different caste, she brings it up and says something like that dating him is like dating a Muslim man. You will not marry him, just have fun. She talks about it with us as if it is totally normal.

Then one of her husband's friend is lower caste Hindu who converted to Christianity. She uses deragotry terms (Malloo?) for him when he is not around.

While I haven't had any deep conversation with her about caste but few times when I asked why she obesses over it, she says it is not just caste but totally different culture. Which to me sounds bullshit.

Just to add context, mallu is a term for malayali people, who live in kerela state for india. It is used insultingly as an ethnic slur.

So, she is kinda right. It is not casteist, but a word used in a derogative way for a certain ethnic group.

Just want to add some more context. When I say she is liberal, she is indeed liberal. Her feed is full of BLM and LGBTQ causes. She has made donations to many of such causes too. She is the nicest person and worries about other people's issues. Gets really sad if there is a sad event in news, no matter where.

I think the problem is people have certain blindspots. Media can help you see these spots. That's why she is hyper aware of causes that the American media cares about.

In terms of caste, she grew up with certain beliefs but it is not something American media has shed any light on it.

She watches Bollywood movies but don't think they watch anything else from India. And I don't really see Bollywood dealing with caste issues seriously.

That's why she doesn't even understand the question when I ask why caste is so important. Also my wife stops me before I can dig any deeper.

Unfortunately, some immigrant parents indoctrinate their children in the ways of the old world. I've had many american born Muslim friends growing up, some of them were self professed atheists, but one thing I've never seen any of them do is eat pork. I believe it is because from a young age if you are made to believe that pork is disgusting, unhygienic etc... You develop a reflex that cannot be overcome. It is probably the same with some upper caste immigrants raising their kids to believe that lower caste people are unhygienic, unintelligent etc... I believe the term is dehumanizing and if you do it enough, it works reflexively.

Well, hold on. I’m indian american, I and my parents are lifelong atheists, our families are supposed to be vegetarians by caste and tradition and whatever but we’re not, but! though I eat chicken and fish and so on, I won’t eat beef, not because I feel “indoctrinated” or because I have an insurmountable reflex (I’ve eaten beef voluntarily on a few occasions, but that was mostly to avoid causing a scene).

Notwithstanding the ecological reasons to do so, I voluntarily don’t eat beef because I feel like it’s one of the easiest and least-damaging (ie it’s a tradition that seems to represent comparatively little direct historical social strife) means left to me, as a second-gen person, to maintain some aspect of my heritage.

Identity and tradition among second-gen immigrants in America is complicated (as is identity, generally) and doesn’t really admit generalizations like these.

I never generalized second gen Indian Americans, i merely said some, keyword is some, immigrant parents indoctrinate their children with old world philosophy and indoctrination works, it doesn't matter where you were born, if your parents (and extended family) beat certain ideas into your head through repetition and you do not either have the wisdom/experience to understand right and wrong for yourself, you can and will be indoctrinated.

It would require far more than just changing one's name. It is somewhat like the difference between old money and new money, except in this case the lower case person doesn't even have the ability to buy the training and coaching that new money is able to (to say nothing of likely having to deal with many more poverty related issues). Accents, speech patterns, how you hold yourself, how you react to people interacting with you based on both their situation and their own caste will all be different.

During the previous discussions some has mentioned that they converted to a different religion

I think I recall the commenter mentioned he was of the lowest caste, and he decided to convert to Christianity to get away from the discrimination.

Which as this thread shows only helps a little. You have a chance - but only a chance - that your group is now Christians. As a minority religion you can stick together with your new group who also feels the issues of being in a minority religion. But that only sometimes look - some people convert more wholly than others, and thus are more or less able to ignore previous norms.

I have a friend whose parents converted to christianity, and so my friend grew up christian. But guess what, the first time I met my friends' mom(at his wedding), the first question she asked after verifying native state(TamilNadu) was which caste I belonged to. (And yeah just to be clear, she asked which caste I'm from, and she/they're from xxx caste). So no caste is not something people escape from converting religion.

I’m sorry but I’m completely facinated. What do you suppose would happen if your answer was something like: “Oh, we don’t believe in castes” or “I’m not in any caste”. I assume they’d just assume the “worst”.

yes, basically they would assume you converted from lower caste.

If the person is so forward with this, isnt that a good filter (of sorts) to avoid a specific person who will judge you by such things rather than your character?

I've had this happen with people trying to figure out wealth based on very specific questions regarding where my parents live, etc -- I run the other way. Better to know sooner than later right?

Two of my best friends are Indian Americans, and our friendships were natural and formed around shared experiences together, character, etc. It is nice to form friendships on a blank slate.

> If the person is so forward with this, isnt that a good filter (of sorts) to avoid a specific person who will judge you by such things rather than your character?

Sure do note, this is a friends' mom so atleast a couple of decades older than me.. I've a good friendship with her son, so i guess it's just a question of being polite with her and limiting spending time with her.

Have you read Ian Banks novel Look to Windward which has a heavily Casted society?

I'm guessing people will go with the highest probability guess. It's like when people ask about religion. Most won't take "I have no religion" for an answer if you're from a country/place where that's uncommon. They will still try to assume your family background unless you elaborate.

Okay few pointers, there's a bunch of dialects in the language that vary mostly based on which sub-part we come from. In turn, most sub-parts have one or other caste majority, additionally, people take a guess based on looks, accent and choice of vocabulary too.. So she'd assume something and keep moving on..

All upper caste Indians who convert to Christianity still keep something in their name to signal their caste. So much for egalitarianism

Yup. When the Portuguese ruled Goa and surrounding parts of India, they were happy to keep caste prejudices -- for example, for a long time they only allowed Christian converts of Brahmin origin to become priests.

Similarly, other Catholics attempted to integrate the caste system into Christianity in India (see the Malabar rites controversy), and had two different "castes" of priests, one acting as Brahmin's and ministering to higher castes, and one acting as Hindu priests from lower castes (pandarams), ministering to everyone else.

That is really messed up, i guess one thing you learn through history is that missionaries were in cahoots with the states they represented. I remember reading that a common tactic used by states who wanted to conquer places was that they sent merchants to trade first, then missionaries, then armies.

Both Christianity and Islam observe upper and lower castes in India.

What's worse is the discrimination they face sees almost no recognition, since on paper neither of those religions acknowledge caste.

A short look - https://theprint.in/opinion/indias-muslim-community-under-a-...

> 85% of the Muslim representatives in the Parliamentary House are from the 15% (ashraf) upper caste. (PARETO!)

A detailed look at it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8_6ryRZcU0

Christianity in India has a fascinating history. The first were converted by Saint Thomas the Apostle personally. And then Christian missionaries were part of the much more recent European contact. I’m no expert on the subject, but I’d wager how Christians in India see caste depends on their particular heritage.

As someone who comes from a Christian background in India I would like to add here that while the caste system (unfortunately) exists even among the Christians and Muslims in India it is nowhere near as strong as among the Hindus.

There are indeed situations where in parts of the country there are even cemeteries divided on the basis of caste but this is far from being the norm.

However, there are many low caste priests and even bishops in Christianity - which is a very rare occurrance among Hindus where priests are almost exclusively brahmin except for very rare exceptions.

They often do that. Its called converting to a new religion.

Its one of the most politically hot topics in India for a while now.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com