Hacker News Reader

I disagree, and partially because of the reasons that you describe. Sometimes the devs are so used to the way the software works (they built it, after all) that it doesn't even occur to them that it sucks for people who aren't starting with a mental model of the system's internal state. Likewise, I've met devs who are apparently happy to ship... poor... software - sometimes an adversarial relationship is proof that the system is working.

View on HN

I agree, this model seems to work the best for our team. I worked with different "agile" teams with QA member embedded in the team and with separate QA teams.With both models either the relationship between dev/QA becomes so toxic or the QA person is just a rubber stamp depending on the team dynamics. I found that taking away the safety net of QA from developers actually results in better ownership of the product quality by development teams,Because now dev teams don't have some one else to blame for not testing enough.This also added benefit of developers will automate most of the testing because they generally don't want to spend all their time doing manual tests of their code.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com