It seems weird to pronounce that you detest it in general since it's not a monolithic thing and is more of a general concept encompassing a law tradition informed by a moral/religious framework.
https://bridge.georgetown.edu/research/factsheet-sharia/
https://ing.org/a-closer-look-at-sharia-in-the-united-states...
The exchange between Bill Maher, Sam Harris, and Ben Affleck[0] is a great example of hamfisting Islamophobia into completely legitimate criticisms of Islam, Islamism, Sharia over secular society, etc. Not every criticism of Islam (and truthfully, the vast majority of criticisms of Islam) are not racist of Islamophobic.
Right or wrong I have always associated refusal to use traditional banking a more hard-line Muslim belief.
A closer example might be the MPAA (US film rating group). It's a voluntary certification, but it's become a de facto requirement such that the small, opaque, non-government group shapes the level of violence (high) and nudity (low) in all TV and films.
Edit:
For most Sharia fintech startups, MUI certificates are not only commercially advantageous but legally required by the Financial Services Authority of Indonesia (OJK), the state financial regulator. Other areas of the Sharia digital economy, like halal e-commerce and umrah sites, travel-booking platforms for Islamic pilgrimages, do not require this certificate.
So yes for fintech, maybe for ecommerce in general?
https://www.ojk.go.id/en/berita-dan-kegiatan/siaran-pers/Pag...
Participating in the Indonesian sharia finance economy would be more akin to something like organic certification on produce. Most farms are not organic but if you want to label your products as such then you have to undergo a certification process with an agency like the USDA. In this case to be certified Halal you have to gain the MUI certificate which is recognized by the OJK Financial Services Authority of Indonesian. However, an Indonesian person is likely better person to clarify this more precisely.
>>Well obviously. If you want to build a halal certified banking product it has to be implement syariah principles, thats the point.
Nowhere does it say that most fintech startups, let alone most finance, are are seeking that classification.
I'm not sure why he refuses to accept the fact that he might be wrong in this instance, though. I've seen him talk about other topics with Maher before and he's not nearly so bombastic or hard-headed.
I saw an interesting interview with Harris shortly after this where he said everyone was shocked that Affleck inserted himself into the conversation this way as well. I haven't seen many episodes of this show but apparently this segment is always a one-on-one between Maher and the guest in question, usually talking about whatever book or movie they're promoting, and given Ben's relative frequency on the show prior to this, he was aware of that.
Not surprising that their fanbases and communities loyal to them are going to jump on this far more than necessary. It doesn’t matter if Affleck didn’t do a horrible job in that scene, the reaction wasn’t going to be that much different from Harris’ fans.
Absolutely not.
It specifically applies only to Muslims, while excluding others (known as dhimmi, which translates to something like "protected people"). Others have protected rights to live, have property, and freedom of religion, and in exchange they're expected to respect the authority of the State and are subjected to different taxes (jizya tax). Everything else depends on the implementation.
It's basically how you get a vibrant expat community in places like Dubai.
Not really, there are no punitive consequences for merely being attracted to the same sex, but there are for acting upon it publicly. Furthermore the law doesn't interfere with what's private nor is it allowed to breach the individual's privacy. Someone who doesn't wilfully disrupt the social order should have no problems in that regard.
I think reductionist views can be slightly misleading sometimes.
That's describes a "moderate" Sharia regime.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Egypt#Living_co...
And here's a more typical conservative regime. I guess I'll leave it to the reader to decide whether it's you or me who are being absurd.
FWIW, I have no problem w/ Muslims practicing their faith as private citizens. When the government of a country becomes dominated by a religion, though, I have a problem with that. And that goes for Christian theocracies too, although those are much less common these days.
You seem to have wilfully ignored that part, since neither you nor the article you linked addressed or opposed that part.
Interesting change of rhetoric after being called out, since you formulated the bizarre question "where sodomy is allowed when it occurs in private?", before having the epiphany that "Of course the law can never punish anyone for a crime that isn't detected"
> But by that definition murder and rape are "legal" everywhere in the world, as long as they occur "in private."
You are really going out on a limb to make nonsensical statements. The law has quite naturally limits, one of them being: the inability to judge events that it can't detect or reach. “Covenants, without the sword, are but words and of no strength to secure a man at all.” ― Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan Law needs to be enforced by humans, who can only do so if they can perceive that event.
>Under that notion of privacy there has never been a time in history where sodomy or any other sexual act was forbidden.
Same point, limits of law.
> IMO this is not a useful way of thinking about legality or oppression.
What some consider 'oppression' today was the norm globally. The problem is moral realism/anti-realism, since you can't prove your moral value judgments with science they will remain subjective and thus naturally be opposed.
I'm afraid no amount of appeal to the evils of moral relativism are going to be enough to convince me that homosexuality is legal in most countries where the judgments of sharia courts are routinely enforced by the government.
That doesn't even make any sense. I am not trying to convince you of anything, all I did was educate you on the facts and I pointed out the inconsistencies in your arguments.
Or it's illegal, and it will be punished if discovered.
If the claim is that sodomy in private is legal, there's a simple test: What happens if (government or private) surveillance catches evidence of it, a third-party steals and publishes private letters discussing it, ...?
Nonsense, so it's illegal then, full stop. It doesn't become legal just because it's private, when by discovering it is punished. The law just can't enforce the ruling when it can't detect it in the first place.
>If the claim is that sodomy in private is legal
You failed to read properly, no where did I or the other guy state that it is legal in private. The argument was about the limits of the law about events it can't perceive.
Please quote the part where anyone of us made that alleged claim.
> You failed to read properly, no where did I or the other guy state that it is legal in private. The argument was about the limits of the law about events it can't perceive.
They said: "Furthermore the law doesn't interfere with what's private". If that indeed was to mean "it's fine as long as you do not get caught", that's a pretty pointless argument when discussing laws - because that is indeed true of pretty much all laws. E.g. "Someone who doesn't wilfully disrupt the social order should have no problems in that regard." suggests that's not what's meant though, but rather that indeed as long as you don't do anything public (which might "disrupt social order") you are fine. Which AFAIK is the case in some places re religious practice: you can be of the "wrong" or no religion, practice it in private circles, but don't do anything public.
Wrong again, I stated several times that it's about the limits of law, yet you still keep ignoring the answer and asking if I meant X or Y. It's not 'pointless' because the hyperbolic statement about being punished just for 'existing' was made. At least try to be more charitable in your biased interpretation for the sake of civility.
>Someone who doesn't wilfully disrupt the social order should have no problems in that regard." suggests that's not what's meant though
I don't even see the how your inference makes any sense here. AGAIN it is about the LIMITS of the law, if you keep something private no one can punish you, but if you wilfully disrupt the social order it will have consequences in any place of the world.
> but there are for acting upon it publicly.
So a discussion of acting on it non-publicly (=in private) is IMHO very well relevant, but you clearly interpreted the gist of jediminds argument differently than asdfasgasdgasdg and me, but that doesn't make the nuance bizarre.
You are really confused, it was "LatteLazy" who made the hyperbolic statement, not jedimind.
>So a discussion of acting on it non-publicly (=in private) is IMHO very well relevant, but you clearly interpreted the gist of jediminds argument differently than asdfasgasdgasdg and me, but that doesn't make the nuance bizarre.
There is nothing bizarre about it, what's bizarre tho is jumping into a discussion without having studied the root issue & the development of the discussion and in consequence failing to understand simple arguments.
> In response to that "hyperbolic statement" jedimind
Note the lack of a "by" before "jedimind".
I disagree, much confusion. I can't see any hyperbole in the statement you quoted.
Actually there is in many countries, including many claiming to run sharia law systems.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
There are similar articles for dozens of other countries.
Can you cite one from your linked article that fits your classification and contradicts his argument? I couldn't find one fitting in your classification.
I think there are some dusty luxury cars at Dubai airport that beg to differ