GM’s new series of Ultium Drive electric motors | Hacker News Reader

GM’s new series of Ultium Drive electric motors

arstechnica.com

51 pointsrbanffy66 comments

The news is always [major car manufacturer] will have a huge range of EVs available in [3 to 5 years - pick one].

I mean, good luck to them, but I'm getting tired of all the years of announcements and then not much actually happening on the ground. This announcement shit has been going on for a decade or more.

The GM Bolt was pretty good, so credit for that, but they couldn't manufacture it to make a profit. And it was never available in my country (UK).

As another classic example, here's a VW press relase from 2013, when they declared they would lead the world on EVs by 2018.

September 9, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- The Volkswagen Group has set its sights on global market leadership in electric mobility. "We are starting at exactly the right time. We are electrifying all vehicle classes, and therefore have everything we need to make the Volkswagen Group the top automaker in all respects, including electric mobility, by 2018", Prof. Dr. Martin Winterkorn, CEO of Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft, said on the eve of the 65th International Motor Show in Frankfurt am Main.

https://tass.com/press-releases/700457

I think Kia and Hyundai are the only people genuinely giving Tesla a run for their money at the mo. Last time I checked they were constrained by battery supplies, maybe they've fixed that now. Oh and the long range Renault Zoe is pretty good. And maybe the long range Leaf but its a bit pricey and skimps on battery cooling.

(edit: my unspoken assumption here is that only EVs with 200+ mile range are really worth talking about at this point)

I get the skepticism but VW have done what they said, a couple of years later than originally planned, not bad considering the significant challenges of dieselgate fallout and building a modular EV powertrain for multiple vehicle classes within an existing ICE infrastructure. Just yesterday on the motorway here I saw an advert for the new ID3 - it’s here.

Profitability is a related but separate issue. Getting to market at all is a significant step forwards. Time will tell how the financials look for these auto companies.

I get the skepticism but VW have done what they said, a couple of years later than originally planned

Well, they've just about managed to release a 200+ mile EV at roughly the same price/range as their competitors * . Thats hardly 'top automaker in all respects, including electric mobility'.

* and thats only because the Tesla Model 3 is extra expensive in Europe, until they get that German factory fired up

Just yesterday on the motorway here I saw an advert for the new ID3 - it’s here.

Is the ID3 actually delivered to customers and on the road though? Wasn't last time I checked.

Yes. Deliveries started a week ago. Here's someone posting videos about his new ID.3 to his YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/c/BatteryLife/videos

He's tried various drives and charging sessions. The matrix headlights are quite nice.

Well thats something. I hope the new VW platform turns out to be as world changing as they are making it out to be.

Are you comparing USD and EUR prices? Because VAT is a larger difference than import duties, and GF Berlin won't help there.

I'm basing it on Musks statements that to get the cars as cheap as possible they need to be manufactured in the appropriate continent. Thats the point of the German gigafactory.

But indeed who knows what the eventual UK Model 3 price will be. Better than it currently is for sure.

Depending on where tariffs land after Brexit, it's possible there's little difference.

GF Berlin will probably be more efficient than Fremont. But so will Texas and whatever comes after.

Don't forget transportation costs too. Not cheap shipping containers full of cars halfway across the world.

Fremont -> Rotterdam is quite a sail!

That's true, although as an individual that costs maybe ~$1k, and I imagine they get much better prices sending them a ship full at a time. I'd love to know exactly how much.

Plus intermediate parts (eg batteries) have to be shipped from China or the US until the factory itself is self sufficient, which may take a few years, and this eats in to the shipping savings. The Gigafactory Berlin plans currently approved do not yet include battery manufacturing.

As far as costs go, shipping is a distant third factor in the US/EU price difference (maybe 2%), compared to the import tariff (10%) and VAT (often >20%).

One of my neighbors has an ID3 (since a few weeks IIRC), so it seems they're available. I've also seen another one on the road.

> As another classic example, here's a VW press relase from 2013, when they declared they would lead the world on EVs by 2018.

Volkswagen is the biggest BEV maker in Europe today:

https://www.schmidtmatthias.de/post/april-2020-european-elec...

Give them a couple more years and they will be the biggest BEV maker worldwide. Here are some BEVs you can buy from them either right now or soon:

- Porsche Taycan

- Audi e-Tron

- Audi Q4 e-tron

- Audi e-tron GT

- VW e-Golf (being replaced by the ID.3)

- VW ID.3

- VW ID.4

- Skoda Enyaq

And more to come each year. Volkswagen is walking the walk.

Biggest BEV maker if you include PHEVs, but thats not what I'm talking about.

Which of those models actually exist and which ones are any good? Because the last electric Audi I heard about was feeble. The Porche has good handling going for it but not much else.

No, biggest BEV maker in Europe right now. The chart is a bit confusing.

Hmm ok, just scraping ahead of Nissan/Renault. OK well thats something.

What have they been selling 30k of between Jan and Apr then? e-Golfs and e-Trons?

edit: WAIT, your chart is 'Western Europe'. If you look at all of Europe, YTD sales (up to July) you get:

Renault Zoe - 46259

Tesla Model 3 - 34014

VWe-Golf - 21794

Audi e-Tron - 16643

Kona EV - 15971

https://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2020/08/europe-july-2020.html

Strong showing by the e-Golf (how are they selling that many of a car with 125 mile range??) and e-Tron but even if you add them together Renault are still way ahead. Well deserved, the Zoe is a great package.

Edit: WAIT WAIT didn't go far enough down the list to catch the e-up

E-up - 9975

So that does indeed put vw in the lead, and mostly with sales of previous-gen EVs with 100/125 range. How are they shifting those?

You missed the e-UP, so parent's assertion is actually correct. But Europe this year isn't representative, Tesla lost a quarter to covid and their sales ramp for Q3 hasn't happened yet.

On the other hand, the ID.3 and ID.4 are going to provide serious competition in the near future, and on the other, other hand, GF Berlin will come eventually. Exiting times.

I think VW's getting EV religion is the silver lining of diese gate. Having the previous guy that sat in your seat sitting in prison focuses the mind.

I think I had this exact same debate with you about a year ago. Trying to find it in my comment history, lol. But the ID3 is finally on the road, that is great.

Probably. I've been saying the same thing for a while.

I share your frustration. But companies really are ramping up now, after a decade of platitudes and concept cars.

I suspect "manufacture it to make a profit" is the reason for the change. It's only now possible for manufacturers to build a platform like MEB and scale it over enough sales with low enough unit costs to make a profit.

Building a mass market EV five years ago would have been suicide for any existing manufacturer. So compliance EV foot in the water conversions is all we've had.

Even Tesla, which has industry leading R&D efficiency, is still quite far in the red cumulatively. They don't break out costs enough to know if the Model 3 program has broken even yet, but if it has yet it's probably only recently. They get great margins, but they spent a ton of money to ramp up.

Building a mass market EV five years ago would have been suicide for any existing manufacturer

Indeed, but they all had to pretend it was right around the corner to keep their shareholders happy while Tesla sped ahead with a genuinely very difficult mission.

Yeah. But be careful about extrapolating too much from the past. It took 8 years for a decent VW Model S/X competitor to show up (Taycan/E-Tron), 3 for the Model 3 (ID.3) and it will be just 1 for the Model Y (ID.4).

I believe Tesla will lead in technology for the foreseeable future, but unlike just a few years ago, from now on you're actually going to have to think about what brand to buy, rather than what Tesla to buy.

Being able to manufacture in volume is one of the criteria needed to beat Tesla, its yet to be seen whether VW can do that. Batteries are the key to that.

The EPA range for the Taycan is 201 miles, for the e-Tron 204 miles. Frankly, both extremely crappy for the price. So its very debatable to call them competitors to the Model S/X.

The Taycan can beat the S around the track, I'll concede that.

But I take your point, Tesla's lead will shrink. Although I think they are much further ahead in software than people realise.

The E-Tron range really is poor, the whole platform is really, but the EPA Taycan range is bogus.

Car and Driver found about a 10% gap between Taycan and Model S range at highway speeds. Might be a crappy test, but you'd never ever get close to that if the real range was 400 vs 200 miles.

I'm calling them competitors because they're selling. The E-Tron is outselling the Model X and Taycan revenue is probably not too far from that of the Model S.

Ultimately, consumers opening their wallet is what counts. I'd have called the Bolt a Model 3 competitor based on the on paper specs, but people were just not interested. It's selling today at deep discounts to clear all the unsold 2020 inventory.

> and it will be just 1 for the Model Y (ID.4)

I'd say Volkswagen are doing four Model Y competitors so far. VW ID.4, Skoda Enyaq, Audi Q4 e-tron, and the Cupra Tavascan.

The Porsche Macan will also have a BEV version in a couple of years.

Progress takes time. It's been baby steps and I think GM is walking now...in January GM announced a new plant to the tune of a $2.2 billion investment. It builds only EV.

"But with the official announcement about the facility today, and a battery gigafactory in the works, GM begins to transform Detroit-Hamtramck for an electric future, with a growing workforce dedicated to EVs. The pieces are coming together."

https://electrek.co/2020/01/27/gm-declares-detroit-hamtramck...

Isn't the Bolt in the EU called Opel/Vauxhall Ampera? I've seen those around here.

The Ampera is the hybrid (like the GM Volt). The EV version is called Opel Ampera-e in mainland Europe but never made it to the UK

Ultium sounds like the ultimate element name! Certainly better than Oganesson or whatever wacky names IUPAC chooses.

In seriousness, this is an exciting time for electrification, GM put serious engineering effort into this lineup and from the looks of it they expect to be going all in this decade.

Perhaps they could not get their hands on Unobtanium otherwise that would be better.

Unobtanium Drive could be reserved for their corvette hypercar.

I was going for Dilithium Crystals and warp drive, but either one will be a huge upgrade!

Too bad they didn't use the Delco name --- Delco Ultium would be a great name for these.

Oganesson was named after a physicist called Oganessian, it’s no different from curium or seaborgium or einsteinium.

I wonder when we'll see the rise of drop-in replacement motors to convert combustion cars to electric? It seems to me that, done properly, this would be a major market for someone to enter and engage.

The low-rpm torque of electric motor is liable to damage whole drivetrain, unless clutch and transmission are replaced, too. Or the motor torque will have to be limited by control unit. Either way it quite lowers the appeal.

I'm skeptical. Electrical cars have much different internal layout and weight distribution, as well as being heavier overall.

If the goal would be to switch the vehicle fleet over to electric, makes more sense to aggressively introduce it with new cars (say, a moratorium on new ICE cars, or fleet fuel efficiency / emissions standards that would in practice allow vendors to sell only a small fraction of ICE vehicles), and let existing ICE cars run to the end of their lives as is.

Not going to happen. To have any reasonable range you need to fit a large and heavy battery pack in too. Best place to put it is low down as the foundation of the whole chassis. No chance to drop that in as a replacement.

Enthusiasts have been retro-fitting electric motors and batteries to cars for decades. A quick search on google or youtube will turn up many examples. Many of the necessary components are now available of the shelf.

I read this headline, and thought it was really weird that General Motors would be building magnetic tape cartridge transport motors, or why that would be newsworthy.

Ultium != Ultrium

What's holding back in-wheel motors like the Protean?

In wheel motors have high unsprung mass, which has negative effects on the performance of the vehicle and ability of the suspension system to keep the wheels on the road in particular. It is difficult to actively cool a motor in the wheel as well, although you would have an easier time with radiated cooling at least.

Also, wheels are the most exposed part of the vehicle! It is much safer to keep the motor inside where there is less dust and road debris.

Thanks. Wasn't there a study done regarding unsprung mass that suggested the effects may not be as bad as feared and vehicles could be tuned to compensate?

What's the state of the art in motor design? In terms of range or power, is there any innovation boundary we are yet to push?

Probably whatever motor is Bosch selling to the highest bidder.

You don’t really hear much about Bosch because it’s not on the stock market. But they have a couple of huge research centers worldwide and their tech is used by every auto manufacturer in the industry.

Electric motors are already incredibly efficient, so even halving their losses / doubling the efficiency would increase range by at most a few percent.

Probably Lucid. They claim 15% better whole-car efficiency than the next best:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwzOlPBheO0

The Lucid Air Dream Edition does a 9.9 second quarter mile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LRT7bIJcis

And the Lucid Air Grand Touring is supposed to get 517 miles EPA rated range:

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2021-lucid-air-technology/

https://www.lucidmotors.com/

Are these liquid cooled? There's what looks like a fill cap on top? Do they need a separate radiator?

If it’s like a Tesla, it is liquid cooled but the system is much more sealed. Tesla recommends changing your coolant once every 150k miles.

Chevy Bolt (a GM EV) has three cooling coops, with three water pumps. (Electronics/motor, cabin heat, battery) https://www.searchautoparts.com/sites/www.searchautoparts.co... Identical 150k coolant change interval.

So is this the LS of electric motors?

probably, if GM sticks it in everything.

mass adoption of the same series' of motor over an entire line-up will definitely increase the amount of parts that are available for folks to tinker with outside the GM models -- one of the big factors that lead to the success of the LS in the car-hobbyist sector was that one could find one at the nearest junkyard.

but, really, that trend started earlier with the 4" bore small block motors from 1962 onwards; the same family of engine the LS is from, anyway. They were produced forever, put in everything, and could be had by any hobbyist for very cheap from the closest junkyard.

also was keeping with a dated technology (pushrods) to keep the motor small and relatively simple (and arguably more reliable).

not sure what the analogue would be in electric motors.

Electric motors are much more reliable than any combustion engine. The only thing that really wears out are the bearings and those are easily replaced. So the electric analogue of the LS will probably be _any_ electric motor.

This really misses the point of why the LS and previous variants were and are so popular with gearheads.

GM is more than willing to sell parts to anyone and they don't really care what you plan on doing with them. Fix your car and keep it stock, modify it with more power, put a GM motor in a Toyota, they don't care.

It's a very hacker friendly mentality actually.

Tesla is actively trying to prevent people from even maintaining their own cars, forget about trying to put a Tesla drivetrain in a 1990 Corolla or something.

That's the thing, you don't need to use a Tesla drivetrain, there are plenty of electric motors out there to do with as you please.

Why use Tesla components? There are now a wide range of components available for electric conversions.

And if you want to use Tesla bits, they are readily available at auto wreckers. And most have been thoroughly reverse-engineered by now.

Some of us are dreaming about the day when we can order a robust EV drivetrain and slap it in whatever we have on hand, without having to disassemble a wreck and retrofit aftermarket control boards. Just like GM crate motors. I really want to see a website like the following, but with Ultium instead of LS:

https://www.chevrolet.com/performance-parts/connect-cruise-p...

That would be the 3-phase induction motor. Extremely simple, reliable, doesn't need any exotic or expensive materials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_motor

Maybe more like, electric motors are the LS of motive power just as soon as they're common enough? If it's not a diabolically weird motor, there will be a motor controller to deal with it. Tesla's sales volume and active opposition to repair might beat GM to the punch with salvage parts alone if GM doesn't get something on the market quick:

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=...

Tough to argue with a 400kW motor + transmission that could fit without epic metal work in the back of a Smart, the front of a classic Mini, with a bit more work in place of the differential and gas tank to make a rear engine Miata. Fitting batteries becomes the main challenge, but battery placement is more flexible than fitting an LS, transmission, fuel, intake, exhaust, etc.

Fitting batteries becomes the main challenge, but battery placement is more flexible than fitting an LS, transmission, fuel, intake, exhaust, etc

The difference is that a fuel tank makes a far smaller and lighter (even when filled) part of a vehicle than the batteries in an EV, if you want any decent range.

There's a lot of mass in the ICE and transmission to be exchanged for battery weight, assuming the EV conversion is a direct-drive transaxle.

Sorry, but what's an LS in this context?

EDIT: I guess it is this standard GM V8 engine.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_LS-based_small-...

Yes, sorry, that may need more explanation. In some circles "put an LS in it" is a meme bordering on cliche. GM has historically been willing to sell parts to anyone for any purpose, kind of the opposite of what Tesla is doing. The classic US automakers (especially GM) have a reputation of being friendly to the shadetree mechanic.

So for gearheads ICE powertrains are an easy swap with lots of aftermarket and manufacturer support. Electric drivetrains are more exotic and have many question marks. As we get more mass market electric vehicles from the likes of GM electric swaps (and maintenance!) become much more approachable.

I'm looking forward to seeing electric motors on a site like this: https://www.chevrolet.com/performance-parts/crate-engines

How do these compare to what Tesla is using?

"Kwiatkowski wouldn't be drawn more on the specs other than to tell me that both power and torque density (i.e. the amount of power or torque divided by the volume of the motor) will be industry leading."

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