Princeton math prof challenges admins 'systemic racism' narrative | Hacker News Reader

Princeton math prof challenges admins 'systemic racism' narrative

campusreform.org

6 points_red12 comments

Klainerman said that “to promote excellence in research and teaching, major American universities have to develop policies that are blind to considerations of race, ethnicity, religion, sex, socio-economic class and any other factor not relevant to intellectual achievement.”

Here is the problem with that logic. To say now in 2020 that the school should be colorblind does nothing to address the systemic racism that existed for hundreds of years. Princeton did not accept black students until after WWII[1], so several generations of blacks were denied entrance, despite being academically qualified. Their children and grandchildren are therefore denied the benefits of legacy admission (which currently runs at about 30% acceptance vs 5.8% for regular applicants[2]). In this example being colorblind still hurts some students (or helps others, if you see it that way) solely based on the color of their skin.

1. https://blogs.princeton.edu/reelmudd/2010/10/black-alumni-lo... 2. https://www.collegetransitions.com/blog/college-legacy/#:~:t....

And yet Black students are better represented than non-Jewish White students. Princeton vs US demographics (in %), from most to least represented:

          Princeton  US    ratio
  Asian   20.9       5.3    3.94
  Jewish   8.0       2.15   3.72
  Black    7.7      12.7    0.61
  White   34.7      59.3    0.58
  Latino   9.5      17.6    0.54

Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Sta...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews (using average of 2.15%)

https://hillel.org/college-guide/list/record/princeton-unive...

https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/princeton-university...

And yet Black students are better represented than non-Jewish White students.

Google "Princeton Basketball Team" or "Princeton Football Team" and you will see that Blacks are over-represented on these teams (27% to 30%). I suspect many other sports are similar. You can see how colleges boost the number of Black students in areas where it serves the interests of the school.

https://goprincetontigers.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster https://goprincetontigers.com/sports/football/roster/2019

Would you be in favor of restricting access of black students to ensure others are represented more fairly?

I hope not.

> so several generations of blacks were denied entrance, despite being academically qualified

Being an elite school, there's probably millions of people (of all sorts of backgrounds, etc.) that were qualified and denied entrance, or never sought out, etc.

That is correct. I am a Black student who was academically qualified and did not get into Princeton. This had nothing to do with race.

But before 1946 Princeton specifically excluded Blacks as a matter of policy. Harvard and Yale did not. Blacks who could have gone to Princeton if that policy were not in place might have kids that would otherwise benefit from legacy admission. Princeton has a history of systemic racism whose effects are still felt today.

> Blacks who could have gone to Princeton if that policy were not in place might have kids that would otherwise benefit from legacy admission.

If my ancestors weren't serfs in Europe, I might benefit from a wealthier family. The effects are still felt today.

I get that your tone is facetious, but in my example, the institution responsible for the racism still exists today, and the racism was just one generation ago.

I disagree. You would need to discriminate against others, the resolution of people fighting for their rights is that they want to be treated equally. Your compensatory justice wouldn't work. Judges confirmed that white and asian students are discriminated against. They don't deserve it because it wasn't their racism. You may be able to convince them that they should take note that segregation wasn't that far back in history to nurture awareness.

So, that is that problem with that logic and there is even more since people getting unfairly discriminated could even increase animosity.

the resolution of people fighting for their rights is that they want to be treated equally.

That is not entirely true...people may want to be treated fairly, even if it is not exactly equal. For example I am 6 feet tall so I have no problem reaching the top shelf in a grocery store. My wife is only 5'2" and constantly has to ask someone to reach it for her. If the cheapest items are on the top shelf, that treats us equally but it is not fair. Having stepstools available for shorter people is one way to make it fair, but you would argue that offering stepstools discriminates against tall people.

Quotas were mostly an instrument of discrimination and that has not changed. You don't treat people fairly by making skin color a relevant attribute to determine fairness, that is true for any intrinsic characteristic.

And there are "injustices" you cannot equalize without significant oppression of others. Tallness, beauty, charisma... how would you ensure fairness here?

Colorblindness works in most parts of the world. The recent pop-"enlightenment" leads to much strive. Justifiably so. Reason for that is that it is wrong in my opinion because it is racist. The tendency for self-victimization is a path to even more racism, but that is another perspective.

Accessibility touches the subject of justice too but doesn't fit here as an argument, because ensuring equal access doesn't require discrimination, has a defined goal and is ensured and completed at some point.

Colorblindness works in most parts of the world

Citation please? I bet it only works where everyone is the same color (Norway?) or where there is a mix but no history of one class oppressing another (Singapore?). In most places that come to mind, color/class is still an issue where oppression has been the legacy (South Africa, Australia, US, India, China). The hard part for the formerly oppressed is when the former oppressors say "let's all be equal now" after centuries of having an advantage

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