Ted Nelson argues the importance of personal computing (1979) [video] | Hacker News Reader

Ted Nelson argues the importance of personal computing (1979) [video]

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71 pointsdavisr30 comments

It's been a little while since I've heard this one, but if there's one thing that I remember hitting me is that the same language used by the interviewer is used today about privacy, end user programming and any other more powerful technology, programming language or paradigm. It seems that as an culture we're always able to go so far, but not all the way. We see the path between start and end, there's no genius needed for the last push, but after so much progress we reduce ambition towards the end goal and instead develop arguments against continuing.

At some point we just don't think people need help with paper based tasks, "look around you, it's how everything is done" yet here we are with the PC 40 years later. And people look around and think that there is no chance everyone could be a programmer "look around you, they're all consumers, they couldn't understand how to make the computer do what they like". In 40 years there's no doubt this viewpoint will be wrong, but the popular opinion on the matter can't see that future.

See Bret Victors history of computing. The biggest adversary we have to overcome towards progress is the mainstream experts of our own field.

We have apps which seem to be like starting from scratch every time, which can't have abilities known by all because they aren't prepackaged by the devs ahead of time. Every app reinvents a minimal subset of sorting and search. If you have a better idea or a different connection you want to make its just not possible in the app.

Stop pretending that debilitating users is actually good for them in the silly word games we play. Give users power.

Good for the interviewer for making counter arrangements at that time. Some of the things he said are still true: we still have to come up with categories in our heads. This is true regardless of advancements in ML.

Good point! I might give it another listen. I remember it being an interesting respectful conversation with no ground given on either side. Hence the title, I suppose.

> The biggest adversary we have to overcome towards progress is the mainstream experts of our own field.

“Science advances one funeral at a time.” - Max Planck (Apparently)

This Idea Must Die is an interesting take on that concept.

I feel like we don't give tools like Microsoft Excel, Game Maker, Photoshop, or the web enough credit for the ability they empower users of computers. Without any formal training or education, they're able to use computers to their ends.

Give Excel to an uncontacted tribe and see how well they go with it.

That we assume reading, numeracy and fine motor skills which until 5 centuries ago were the preserve of less than 1% of the population in the West are not part of formal education or training should tell you all you need to know about how much cultural knowledge we assume people need to have in their daily life to function at the level of a 10 year old.

That 4 years to learn to read is considered normal but reading a 100 page manual is considered unreasonable shows us how much popular culture is lagging behind our tools. Given how technocentric our culture is, this is a situation as ridiculous as Mongols complaining that they need to learn to ride horses.

oh ok

> there is no chance everyone could be a programmer

There is no chance, even if by "everyone" you just meant "a majority". It's intellectually challenging, just for one.

Imagine if "everyone" was literate, what a world that would be /s

Is being able to read at the minimum level comparable to programming?

Do you seriously expect 99% of the population to be able to understand something as simple as the demonstration of Euclid's theorem? And yet any programming is more complicated than that, and more analogous.

Reading and writing is intellectually challenging. Everyone can do it now, because we make sure to teach them to do it, and because it's necessary to live in modern society.

Almost anyone can walk, not everyone can climb mount Everest, or even a much smaller mountain face. Bad analogies are bad.

Are you seriously trying to claim that programming, of any useful sort, is so hard that only really smart people, presumably like yourself, can do it? Christ. I really hope the software development industry gets its ego kicked in really hard in the near future so everything can stop sucking because of elitist asshats.

Well on one hand, it could be my massive ego, and on the other it could be the truth.

You're the one arguing on the basis of value. I don't. Let me just ask you this; do you think that being a good enough finance trader requires a high IQ? I'm pretty sure of it, and I'm also of the opinion that what they're applying their smarts to is a net negative for society as a whole.

Another question, have you read Steven Pinker's The Blank Slate?

I think the other two comments make good points. There is every chance that everyone will learn to use a small set of fundamentally composable digital tools in the future. That's programming. I think "intellectually challenging" just means poorly explained or resulting from poor access. Anyone can program, it's just artificially hard to do it today.

> There is every chance that everyone will learn to use a small set of fundamentally composable digital tools in the future. That's programming

That's not, unless you stretch the meaning of the word far into meaningless. But if you insist on doing so, then yes, most people should be able to "compose digital tools" for a small enough number of digital tools and a wide enough meaning of "compose." Although, on second thought, it appears so many people had issues with "programming a VCR" back in the day, and that wasn't anywhere close to my meaning of "programming."

So let me rephrase it, "there is no chance everyone or even majority could become a minimally proficient user of a minimally useful programming language for novel tasks beyond a sequential list of actions."

Such an immensely articulate person... His "Computers for Cynics" series is also very recommendable, the blockchain/bitcoin one particularly so for outsiders that want to know or need to communicate on related matters (e.g. journalists). Happy to have been able to hear him in youtube, he feels so close one feels one knows him personally.

I'll second the computers for cynics. I don't think one of that series is about blockchain but he does have other videos about blockchain.

For those who don't know computers for cynics is his series about questioning the origins of the status quo and considering alternative futures with different foundations.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTI2Kz0V2OFlgbkROVmzk...

Is the seventh in the series: https://youtu.be/3CMucDjJQ4E published on Sep 2014, six years ago, and a must-watch account for any outsider even in 2020. Enjoy it!

Ah I didn't even realize the list I sent wasn't from his account. Thanks for the correction!

That 2014 video is so revealing... I think it deserves a post of its own :-)

I worked with Ted a few years from 2001 and though we kind of stopped working together, I knew him! So I do know him personally. He's a great guy though intolerant of nonsense.

He gives that impression from his videos. He seems to speak his mind honestly and rightfully demands reciprocity.

I discovered that Ted Nelson has a Patreon: http://www.Patreon.com/thetednelson . I decided to sign up and perhaps you would like to help out with a few bucks too.

I've seen talks by him a few times and I think he is worth listening to. He has interesting ideas well worth understanding.

13:40 "The two commonest digital notation languages in the world are musical notation, and knitting."

Knitting is the perfect analogy for describing how DNA works to your grandmother.

"Knit 1 purl 2 often enough and you end up with a sweater."

If curious see also

a thread from 2018: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17376753

LMAO 8:10 Interviewer: This seems to me first and foremost to be a technology looking for a problem to solve

He's right. The same way that writing was. We had perfectly good oral traditions before writing and they were good enough to get us to the bronze age.

I'm a bit annoyed at Ted Nelson for not making that comparison.

An [audio] tag would be more appropiate.

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