Comment by spiderfarmer | Hacker News Reader

Comment by spiderfarmer | Hacker News Reader

Reading things about Qanon I can't help but think how easy it is to fool large swaths of people by telling them exactly what they want to hear. Especially if they, like all Qanon supporters, believe that "disinformation is necessary", something that enables them to believe in you when you're demonstrably lying.

Decennia of sagas, myths, legends, religions and cults have proven that people just want to believe in something that explains the things they themselves can't explain. Things that enable them to form groups that give them a sense of safety. A sense of belonging. A way to feel superior to members of other groups.

No matter how bizarre a believe system looks to the general public, the scale of the internet enables you to reach a large group of people anyway. There will always be an audience that actively searches for things to believe in. You don't have to do anything but to sow some seeds, and they'll actively search for the "facts" that will strengthen their believe.

The internet also enables you to monetise your scam easily with Patreons and advertising.

What have we done.

“People will do anything for those who encourage their dreams, justify their failures, allay their fears, confirm their suspicions, and help them throw rocks at their enemies.”

-Blair Warren, "The One Sentence Persuasion Course: 27 Words to Make the World Do Your Bidding"

The thinking behind this sentence is the cause of the disease, but also the cure. If everyone would teach their children that this is how some people will try to fool you, the world could be a better place.

But they do, many working class communities communicate distrust of middle class white collars

> But they do, many working class communities communicate distrust of middle class white collars

Most white collars are working class. Working class are people who work for a wage or salary.

My gut reaction:

Vetted and official news also can get us to believe lies:

* Iraq has a stockpile of WMD.

* Japanese-American citizens should be rounded up.

* You don't need to wear a mask, so don't go buying them up.

* Collage is a wise investment.

* You should fear $those_people because they will kill you.

* Some civil rights are outdated and you don't need them anymore.

Telling people to not believe the things they're seeing and hearing is probably one of the common denominators of all cults and religions.

There is a difference between lies and conspiracy theories though. Lies have a lifespan after which they are exposed. Conspiracy theories are like lie factories, more lies will be manufactured to rationalize previous lies ad infinity.

Pretty much everything on that list was the right-wing propaganda of it's time. You won't much if any factual reporting supporting any of it.

Don’t know why you are being downvoted, most of the points are indeed typically right wing afaik.

Seems like good journalistic news would write:

* Pentagon said Iraq has a stockpile of WMD

* White house reports Japanese-American citizens will be rounded up.

* You don't need to wear a mask, so don't go buying them up, surgeon general said in press release.

* Collage is a wise investment, according to College administrators.

* You should fear $those_people because they will kill you, Senate discussed last night.

* Congress argues: Some civil rights are outdated and you don't need them anymore.

It's not news if it's opinion. It's news if it's a writeup of things that happen.

This is how almost all news is presented, unfortunately many people don't seem to understand this - i.e. if it's in quotes it's not the editorial opinion of the newspaper! (Otherwise the BBC would be pro-left pro-right etc.)

That's also something we should teach our kids.

Surprisingly, about the first point at least, the reporting I remember is exactly that : "Pentagon says Irak has WMD, but the rest of the world is not convinced."

Now, it might help that I'm French :P

France, the one country that challenged US intelligence because their own intelligence contradicted the CIA and NSA reports. Absolute studs.

And then we renamed French fries to freedom fries.

In the Netherlands no-one of any importance sincerely believed US intelligence, because nobody trusted Bush. But the thinking here was "Well, it's the US and they have us by the balls. The diplomatic thing is to say we understand their stance on Irak."

Please add Germany to that list:

[Excuse me I’m not convinced](https://youtu.be/_k_QbpFl7RM)

That sentence is idiomatic now for many people I know. (WTF is wrong with my markdown here?)

Hacker news doesn't support markdown. https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc

And yet I remember the weasel covers ;) ooooh, not-so-simpler times....

Exposure can lead to the inference that something is true. So if you are wanting to be careful, you need to consider that there may be no effective difference in publishing "Iraq has WMDs" and "the Pentagon says Iraq has WMDs."

You can also see counterarguments to all of those.

QAnon is different because is it totally unfalsifiable in the eyes of those subscribing to it. There is no truth to any of it - whereas ,for example, Iraq didn't have nukes but they had used Chemical Weapons (WMD) on their own population.

These QAnon people genuinely believe Trump is the culmination of a 20 year plan to defeat the deep state. Right...

And who is us?

I assume you meant college?

If so, it is an extremely wise investment. It's not the only way, but its a very good path to take. It's not the best choice for everyone, but people who puppet 'college is a bad investment' are spreading dis-information that an hurt others.

agree that college is the way to go. Just not in the US system. The whole idea of college tuition is fucked up to the rest of the world

No, as blanket advice goes it really isn't a wise investment. It depends entirely on the degree. Many Gen-Ys learned this the hard way after internalizing the notion that taking on lifelong debt to get a degree meant buying a one-way ticket to easy street.

Doctor, accountant, lawyer, engineer? Sure. College is a good investment.

Most other degrees qualify one to be management at Pottery Barn. Hardly worth the five-figure entry fee.

There's a difference between believing a plausible lie that one can't verify on their own, like Iraq having WMDs, verses believing an insane conspiracy theory like that there's an Illuminati child sex/eating cult operating under a pizza shop.

It's the level of fervor and delusion behind these beliefs that has me concerned.

> * Collage is a wise investment.

It was for the person who bought and sold this: https://www.sothebys.com/en/articles/discoveries-john-pipers...

In my opinion, the problem is everyone thinks these things apply to others but not to themselves. There isn’t enough honest introspection.

How is TV any different? Look at the X-Files, yes it was fiction, but I am sure there are many people that believe there are aliens.

we tell ourselves stories to live. politicians use stories too. but is the story of, say the american dream (51% of 18-34 year olds still live with their parents) less dangerous for politicians to tell than that of hollywood child sex rings?

I dunno.

A story that directly or indirectly harms people is always bad.

It's a one-two punch.

One one hand, mesianic movements tend to re-occur throughout history whenever populations are under prolonged stress for various reasons. Then you get the same thing all over again - some powerful figure shall rise, and is indeed rising as we speak, to deliver us all from our bondage.

On the other hand, yes, the internet and social media have made it a lot easier for bullshit to spread out and take over the minds of millions.

I don't think that combination was ever tried before.

What have we done, indeed.

Seeing the downvotes and other comments in this thread, even part of the otherwise intelligent HN crowd wants to belong to this particular movement.

Engineering and the tech community are notorious hotbeds of radical, irrational politics and beliefs.

Simply possessing a very sharp but very narrow analytical thinking is not enough to give one a clear picture of reality.

Analytical thinking par excellence can be very dispassionate and lack empathy. All disinformation has in common it never talks about coming together as a whole. It is never truly compassionate or empathic to the plight of others. To build bridges. Instead othering is a way or tool to direct hate and increase polarization. Thats the true manipulation.

That is assuming the wrong causation - downvotes are often because of disagreeing with the details even if they agree that QAnon are a bunch of fruit loops. It would be like saying people are pro-pedophile because they don't support requiring all primary school teachers to be spayed or neutered. No they are against it because it is a horrifyingly bad solution.

This isn't a new thing; for instance see early 20th century antisemitic conspiracy theories (Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Naziism, etc). And for a somewhat more benign example, the Satanic ritual abuse conspiracy theories in the 80s and 90s. Some people just seem inclined to believe in vaguely occult lunacy, especially if it involves kids (as all three of these examples do).

According to Yuval Noah Harari's "Sapiens", it's as old as humanity itself.

wow and you are being downvoted. wonder how many qanon amd far right fans lurk around here, and how many are among the “elite”. says a lot about this swamp.

When your faith is challenged, downvoting the criticism is a lot easier than analysing your own behaviour and thought process.

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