I’m not a lawyer, but I am in the UK and I do know people who are lawyers so I’ve talked about their court work with them. From what little I know, the processes (the backs and forth, the judgements, and arguments over procedure) are all typical.
I’m not a lawyer, but I am in the UK and I do know people who are lawyers so I’ve talked about their court work with them. From what little I know, the processes (the backs and forth, the judgements, and arguments over procedure) are all typical.
From the article:
>The cross-examinations showed the weakness of the thirty minute guillotine adopted by Baraitser, with really interesting defence testimony cut short, and then unlimited time allowed to Lewis for his cross examination. This was particularly pernicious in the evidence of Mark Feldstein. In James Lewis’ extraordinary cross-examination of Feldstein, Lewis spoke between five and ten times as many words as the actual witness. Some of Lewis’s “questions” went on for many minutes, contained huge passages of quote and often were phrased in convoluted double negative. Thrice Feldstein refused to reply on grounds he could not make out where the question lay. With the defence initial statement of the evidence limited to half an hour, Lewis’s cross examination approached two hours, a good 80% of which was Lewis speaking.
>Feldstein was browbeaten by Lewis and plainly believed that when Lewis told him to answer in very brief and concise answers, Lewis had the authority to instruct that. In fact Lewis is not the judge and it was supposed to be Feldstein’s evidence, not Lewis’s. Baraitser failed to protect Feldstein or to explain his right to frame his own answers, when that was very obviously a necessary course for her to take.
>Today we had two expert witnesses, who had both submitted lengthy written testimony relating to one indictment, which was now being examined in relation to a new superseding indictment, exchanged at the last minute, and which neither of them had ever seen. Both specifically stated they had not seen the new indictment. Furthermore this new superseding indictment had been specifically prepared by the prosecution with the benefit of having heard the defence arguments and seen much of the defence evidence, in order to get round the fact that the indictment on which the hearing started was obviously failing.
>On top of which the defence had been refused an adjournment to prepare their defence against the new indictment, which would have enabled these and other witnesses to see the superseding indictment, adjust their evidence accordingly and be prepared to be cross-examined in relation to it.
As a layman (who admittedly knows nothing about the UK legal system) this looks like they are stacking the deck against Assange.
The judge will have the written outline arguments, and will be focusing on the parts that need greater interrogation. And they will also be juggling various factors -- there's limited court time; letting the case drag on is a potential source as injustice too; etc. On top of that, each side will be looking for advantages within the constraints of allowed legal procedure. All of these will contribute to what's being seen on the day.
If the judge missteps according to procedure, they're open to having the judgement appealed, so they're highly motivated to apply the rules correctly.
I'm not saying that the outcome is just, or that the laws themselves are ok. But the procedure seems ordinary to me, a lay person, and if there _are_ problems with it, they will be technical and unlikely to be spotted in an article like this.
Just in case you missed it, the point here is that if this feels all quite ordinary it means the legal system is biased.
There's no world in which limiting the defense to 1/4 of the time of the offense is fair, and fair is supposed to be the point of a trial.
* As British judge made rulings against Julian Assange, her husband was involved with right-wing lobby group briefing against WikiLeaks founder - https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2020-09-04-as-britis...
* UK government refuses to release information about Assange judge who has 96% extradition record - https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2020-07-31-uk-govern...
You think there are not enough competent people out there for us to avoid conflicts of interest?
As for complying with extradition requests is this sort of abuse of power not the kind of thing the UK wanted to "tweak" the human rights act for?
we (the UK) seems to have participated in these war crimes to a certain extent, i actually have hopes for a better future with a fairer society - so yes I do want to people to call out conflicts of interest and yes i do want people to keep re-justifying their actions through modern morals and context rather than being caught up in nostalgia and nationalism.
As for the extradition requests, of course that's how it works. The UK finds whether the case is more or less fine and then it's off to the US to actually try the case. Why? Because it's not a good idea for the UK to be ruling on US law and they're a close ally with similar laws.
I personally think that we can find people with less conflicts of interest - but in the UK we traditionally don't as we are normalised to the concentration of power that exists in a heavily class based society.
Would love to hear your comments on the article i linked to (https://www.republik.ch/2020/01/31/nils-melzer-about-wikilea...) as it seems a bit tautological to just say it must be right because thats what the UK machinery does.
edit: Apologies i need to stop commenting as the article was linked in another response - its a VERY good read though and i think that when it comes to a potentially precedent setting situation like this the specifics are vitally important.
As for the rumours and claims about seeing his lawyers, I don't have a strong view on it, since the claims seem quite weird and unsubstantiated. I've looked and I can't find any actual reliable reporting on whether he is being denied real representation and I find that suspicious. It's not like there's no journalists who are sympathetic to Assange. I understand it's obviously in the interests of the defence to delay and claim they don't have enough time and information, but that doesn't necessarily make it some human rights issue, it could simply be that that is a strategy they're using to delay the decision. It's clear the judge is not convinced that Assange has been denied proper representation, and if he is, why aren't there any articles in any of our press saying "Here are the 10 times Assange's laywers got turned away". Do you understand where I'm coming from here. It sort of works for Assange to claim that the perfectly ordinary restrictions on visitation are some massive overbearing conspiracy to deprive him of liberty, it doesn't necessarily make it true.
Edit: https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-co... - here are the sentencing guidelines, Assange could not have been sentenced to anything less than 6 weeks. At which point he would've been remanded for the extradition anyway.
In the article his solicitor seems to be referring to a lack of ability to prepare and doesnt seem to have been pulled up on any specifcs not being true?
Also if 50 weeks is standard is it right to only allow 15 mins to prepare a defence? Not just keep him on remand in the mean time? A high profile case questioning his right to asylum should be rushed like that? And why max security and solitary confinement? Are our prisons and border securities so weak we need to go to such lengths? I would have thought house arrest would probably have done it, yes survailance wpuld cost but how kuch does solitary confinment cost? Asshole or not he is no terrorist or mass murder, i recon i could kick the crap out him and trust me i am not tough.
And as far as i can gather (may be wrong but looking for info) he did actually go along with the police requests in sweden and volunteered repeatedly to give a statement or be interviewed but was denied it. He even told them of his intentions to leave the country.
The lack of cooperation apparently came when he got wind of the US wanting to extrodite him, and had sweden agreed not to extrodite him he would have returned for the interviews.. he also was offering remote interviews or ones in london.
But at a high level your statements dont hold for me as there is clear evidence that the governments involved are up to dodgey things, so its absolutley fine for him to seek asylum etc.
>In the article his solicitor seems to be referring to a lack of ability to prepare and doesnt seem to have been pulled up on any specifcs not being true?
Let me be more specific then, in the Guardian reporting we don't only hear from the defence lawyer - we hear the judge's response:
>But Baraitser refused the defence request, saying she had previously offered Assange’s lawyers an opportunity to adjourn the hearing to give them more time to deal with the new US indictment. That had been declined.
So actually that's not quite as clear cut as we were meant to beleive, they'd been previously offered more time and had refused.
>And why max security and solitary confinement?
Again, because there's not great reporting, I don't know a certain answer to this, but it has been mentioned that he was put in solitary because there were fears over his safety in general population. He has since been moved out of solitary.
>I would have thought house arrest would probably have done it, yes survailance wpuld cost but how kuch does solitary confinment cost?
Oh come on now, he's got a history of absconding.
>he did actually go along with the police requests in sweden and volunteered repeatedly to give a statement or be interviewed but was denied it.
See, this is another of those one-sided stories you hear from Assange's defenders. It's more complicated than that, Sweden wanted him to return so they can interview him (and possibly charge him) and he refused, instead saying he would be willing to let them come to the UK to question him. Suspects in crimes don't get to make those demands.
>The lack of cooperation apparently came when he got wind of the US wanting to extrodite him, and had sweden agreed not to extrodite him he would have returned for the interviews.
The law doesn't work like that, Sweden can't just discard their international extradition treaties because Assange wants them to. By making that demand he has basically said there is no possibility of him complying. It's interesting though because there is literally no reason to think that Sweden would be more willing to extradite Assange than the UK.
>Let me be more specific then, in the Guardian reporting we don't only hear from the defence lawyer - we hear the judge's response:.
from the guardian article: "Explaining the short delay to the start of proceedings, Fitzgerald said this had been the first time in six months he had managed to see his client."
no one contested this.
>Again, because there's not great reporting, I don't know a certain answer to this, but it has been mentioned that he was put in solitary because there were fears over his safety in general population. He has since been moved out of solitary.
so skipping over the max security part and making something up about his own safety.. i mean safety from who? the people who dont like him are governments - you saying he might have been epstiened? or are you saying he is a nonce? in which case why not just put him with the other nonces?
>Oh come on now, he's got a history of absconding.
" Where did the story come from that Assange was seeking to avoid Swedish justice officials? This version was manufactured, but it is not consistent with the facts. Had he been trying to hide, he would not have appeared at the police station of his own free will. On the basis of the revised statement from S.W., an appeal was filed against the public prosecutor’s attempt to suspend the investigation, and on Sept. 2, 2010, the rape proceedings were resumed. A legal representative by the name of Claes Borgström was appointed to the two women at public cost. The man was a law firm partner to the previous justice minister, Thomas Bodström, under whose supervision Swedish security personnel had seized two men who the U.S. found suspicious in the middle of Stockholm. The men were seized without any kind of legal proceedings and then handed over to the CIA, who proceeded to torture them. That shows the trans-Atlantic backdrop to this affair more clearly. After the resumption of the rape investigation, Assange repeatedly indicated through his lawyer that he wished to respond to the accusations. The public prosecutor responsible kept delaying. On one occasion, it didn’t fit with the public prosecutor’s schedule, on another, the police official responsible was sick. Three weeks later, his lawyer finally wrote that Assange really had to go to Berlin for a conference and asked if he was allowed to leave the country. The public prosecutor’s office gave him written permission to leave Sweden for short periods of time.
And then? The point is: On the day that Julian Assange left Sweden, at a point in time when it wasn’t clear if he was leaving for a short time or a long time, a warrant was issued for his arrest. He flew with Scandinavian Airlines from Stockholm to Berlin. During the flight, his laptops disappeared from his checked baggage. When he arrived in Berlin, Lufthansa requested an investigation from SAS, but the airline apparently declined to provide any information at all.
" https://www.republik.ch/2020/01/31/nils-melzer-about-wikilea...
>See, this is another of those one-sided stories you hear from Assange's defenders. It's more complicated than that, Sweden wanted him to return so they can interview him (and possibly charge him) and he refused, instead saying he would be willing to let them come to the UK to question him. Suspects in crimes don't get to make those demands.
" But is it normal, or even legally acceptable, for Swedish authorities to travel to a different country for such an interrogation? That is a further indication that Sweden was never interested in finding the truth. For exactly these kinds of judiciary issues, there is a cooperation treaty between the United Kingdom and Sweden, which foresees that Swedish officials can travel to the UK, or vice versa, to conduct interrogations or that such questioning can take place via video link. During the period of time in question, such questioning between Sweden and England took place in 44 other cases. It was only in Julian Assange’s case that Sweden insisted that it was essential for him to appear in person.
" https://www.republik.ch/2020/01/31/nils-melzer-about-wikilea...
>The law doesn't work like that, Sweden can't just discard their international extradition treaties because Assange wants them to. By making that demand he has basically said there is no possibility of him complying. It's interesting though because there is literally no reason to think that Sweden would be more willing to extradite Assange than the UK.
" Was that even a realistic scenario? Absolutely. Some years previously, as I already mentioned, Swedish security personnel had handed over two asylum applicants, both of whom were registered in Sweden, to the CIA without any legal proceedings. The abuse already started at the Stockholm airport, where they were mistreated, drugged and flown to Egypt, where they were tortured. We don’t know if they were the only such cases. But we are aware of these cases because the men survived. Both later filed complaints with UN human rights agencies and won their case. Sweden was forced to pay each of them half a million dollars in damages. "
https://www.republik.ch/2020/01/31/nils-melzer-about-wikilea...
" What is your view of the demand made by Assange’s lawyers? Such diplomatic assurances are a routine international practice. People request assurances that they won’t be extradited to places where there is a danger of serious human rights violations, completely irrespective of whether an extradition request has been filed by the country in question or not. It is a political procedure, not a legal one. Here’s an example: Say France demands that Switzerland extradite a Kazakh businessman who lives in Switzerland but who is wanted by both France and Kazakhstan on tax fraud allegations. Switzerland sees no danger of torture in France, but does believe such a danger exists in Kazakhstan. So, Switzerland tells France: We’ll extradite the man to you, but we want a diplomatic assurance that he won’t be extradited onward to Kazakhstan. The French response is not: «Kazakhstan hasn’t even filed a request!» Rather, they would, of course, grant such an assurance. The arguments coming from Sweden were tenuous at best. That is one part of it. The other, and I say this on the strength of all of my experience behind the scenes of standard international practice: If a country refuses to provide such a diplomatic assurance, then all doubts about the good intentions of the country in question are justified. Why shouldn’t Sweden provide such assurances? From a legal perspective, after all, the U.S. has absolutely nothing to do with Swedish sex offense proceedings.
" https://www.republik.ch/2020/01/31/nils-melzer-about-wikilea...
>no one contested this.
Well yeah, because why would anyone contest this? If the lawyer says he hasn't bothered to visit his client, that's down to him and his client.
Court isn't reddit, you don't get to contest everything the opposition says line by line.
>On the day that Julian Assange left Sweden,
You're missing the point- He absconded whilst bailed in the UK. Which is a hell of a sight more relevant to his bail status in the UK.
That's not what he said.
You're calling his lawyer a liar and stating his statements about whether or not he's been given access to his client are unreliable.
Why?
That your response to that is to question the reporting that does happen, instead of being outraged at how the media is ignoring the case says a lot.
It's clear the judge doesn't care about the claims he's being denied proper representation, as she keeps making rulings that makes the issue worse.
I agree he has his own motivations etc. And was already taking his info with a pinch of salt.
It still looks to me like some of the major elements dont add up, like the release of info to the police, the dropping of the case in sweden, the lack of guarantee to not extrodite to the US. Could just be own biases but given the other information we have about the governments involved it seems most plauable that they are up to no good.
If they are all acting in good faith and this apparent abuse of power is a side effect of their secrecy then i think its just as damning of the overall processes and approach we take (unless we dont really qant an open democracy)