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Comment by bamboozled | Hacker News Reader

Pretty weak response from the US considering China actually have huge forced labor camps.

How about even stronger sanctions?

I guess the US is now so dependent on China that they can't?

At least this US administration is standing up and doing something about it. Do you see the Germany chancellor sanctioning for Xinjiang concentration labor camps? UK prime minister? French president? Japanese prime minister?

Another reason this current administration's hands are tied because it's an election year. And wall street has already raised more money for democrats this past few months than republicans, because of the anti-China stance.

This administration messed up any opportunity to curtail China by dropping TPP.

Everything they’ve done since then is a fraction of the massive gift they gave the Chinese.

Heck, even the Chinese know what a joke this administration is which is why they basically captured Hong Kong, are trying to destroy Vietnam, extracting as much from Australia and India as they can in the past year while the going is good with the administration.

Also, comparing to Germany, a country with a population less than 20% of the US’s which has basically no standing army by design, and hosts massive American bases within it is a complete non sequitur.

Why don’t you compare to India, for example, which within weeks of a small border skirmish pretty much eliminated the entirety of Chinese digital companies from the country. Setting aside the wisdom of that decision, if you’re just comparing the actions taken by administrations, India has done far more in far less time that has been far more effective than throwing random tantrums after Xi refused to bribe your President enough.

> This administration messed up any opportunity to curtail China by dropping TPP

All major candidates of the 2016 election intended to end TPP, so it was dead either way. Only Obama sought to pursue it. To act like it wasn't dead is misinformation

This is very disingenuous.

I went back and read Clinton's position, which was that the concept of the US pivoting to the Pacific Rim vis a vis trade was critical but that TPP lacked some additional measures she wanted (ex. stronger measures against currency manipulation).

I don't think Trump ever articulated a cogent policy position on TPP at all. He did have plenty of his usual free association ranting, though, like:

> "And the Obama Trans-Pacific Partnership and fast track are a bad, bad deal for American businesses, for workers, for taxpayers. It’s a huge set of handouts for a few insiders that don’t even care about our great, great America."

My statement was not disingenuous. She opposed it after they finalized the text, so it doesn't matter what she wished it had before it was finalized. It also matters when you're researching that you look at the date, because she was pro-TPP under Obama but anti-TPP as a candidate

> Then, last fall, once the 12 participating nations announced they had finalized the text after years of negotiations, Clinton said she opposes it -- citing its lack of a crackdown on currency manipulation and provisions to extend pharmaceutical drug companies' patent protections in poorer countries.

And in here words during a debate:

> "I did say, when I was secretary of state, three years ago, that I hoped it would be the gold standard," Clinton said at an October debate with Sanders. "It was just finally negotiated last week, and in looking at it, it didn't meet my standards. My standards for more new, good jobs for Americans, for raising wages for Americans. And I want to make sure that I can look into the eyes of any middle-class American and say, 'This will help raise your wages.' And I concluded I could not."

Source: https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/27/politics/tpp-what-you-need-to...

> This administration messed up any opportunity to curtail China

Companies are stepping over each other to move factories out of China. Just check chinalawblog. Any sane COO is de-risking right now. And what about Pompeo's speech? tariffs? banning wechat? supporting Taiwan? There's an endless list of this administration actions trying to curtail China.

> dropping TPP.

TPP was still an IF still when 2017 rolled around.

> Chinese know what a joke this administration is which is why they basically captured Hong Kong, are trying to destroy Vietnam, extracting as much from Australia and India

China is making stupid mistakes after mistakes. It managed to piss off almost every surrounding neighbors: South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, India, Australia, New Zealand, Vietnam, etc. It is basically at war with India right now. And US, Canada, UK, France, and some EU countries are in conflict with China as well. Just recently, even Germany, one of its last ally in Europe has condemned China publically for the czech republic situation

China is so knee deep in trouble, with internal top leadership conflict, coronavirus, job losses, suffering trade, flooding, food shortage, that it has no choice but to establish internal "order" with inner Mongolia, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, Tibet. But it is messing up there too.

> Also, comparing to Germany, a country with a population less than 20% of the US

That's just dishonest hand waving. Everyone knows Germany leads the EU.

> Why don’t you compare to India

China literally killed Indian soldiers - an act of war. There's no comparison here. And again, this is election year. This US administration cannot piss off every US companies by an absolute economic sanction on China.

Companies are moving their manufacturing out of China, they were before covid and it’s accelerating now. However companies are definitely going to want to sell the the gigantic and growing Chinese market, if they can. This is especially true the longer covid keeps western economies shit down.

> companies are definitely going to want to sell the the gigantic and growing Chinese market

Tons of companies have had that same dream in the last 40 years, before China gets old in 2050, before China became nationalist in 2018. Companies like KFC, Amazon, Facebook, Google, Samsung, Nintendo, Home Depot, Mattel, Ebay.

Mind give an estimate when China will collapse?

> with internal top leadership conflict

Source? My understanding is Xi has pretty effectively consolidated power, and such internal struggles would be pretty opaque to everyone who doesn't have access to a well-connected CCP member.

It does look like they're expecting a period of increased isolation in the future though: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/07/business/china-xi-economy...

sinoinsider

A lot of your complaints could have been the US at various times. And we're still here.

The US basically owns the printing press that they can run for free that other people need to earn for with hard labor. So comparing any country to US is not right - US can make a lot of mistakes and still feel zero repercussions.

This administration is “tough” on China only because the Chinese haven’t agreed to illegally help them with their re-election efforts, and because blaming China for Covid19 is a convenient diversion from the abject failure of the US federal response, and plays nicely to its supporters’ racism and xenophobia.

According to Bolton’s book, when Trump met Xi he praised the Chinese treatment of Uighurs, and begged Xi for help (to borrow Trump’s favorite description, “he begged him like a dog”).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-asked-chinas-x...

This goes along with Trump’s at-least-monthly private phone calls and meetings with Putin where he gets his next instructions, his (as he personally described them) “love letters” to and from Kim Jong Un, his praise for Balsonaro, Erdogan, Orbán, Duda, Prince Salman, Netanyahu, and so on.

The idea that the administration wants to stick it to the Chinese as a way to defend human rights and democracy is ludicrous on its face.

^ wherein @jonathannat discovers that the US liberal establishment lives in an impenetrable bubble inside which no one can say that the Trump administration is doing something right.

The TPP was also a deeeeeee-saster, it amounted to a mega-corp giveaway and one of the most egregious things to the HN crowd at the time was imposing America’s draconian copyright laws on all signatory countries. Frankly I was surprised Obama wanted it as part of his legacy.

> This administration messed up any opportunity to curtail China by dropping TPP

Do you really think 5,600 pages of fresh red tape would have been beneficial long term for the US? The TPP was essentially locking the US into an agreement where a bunch of smaller countries could mooch off of the US economy of scale.

The other countries in the negotiations have a similar population to the US (hell, just Japan, Mexico and Vietnam combined do). Having that many people prefer trade with the US, with a legal framework written by the US (instead of China) probably wouldn't have hurt the US.

The treaty would have tended to favor larger US corporations and not US people (because that's what US "IP" laws do), but it wouldn't have been bad for the US economy.

The difference is that we buy all the crap they make, not the other way around. Not to mention we spend more on the military than China, India, Russia, Saudi Arabia, France, Germany, United Kingdom, Japan, South Korea, and Brazil - combined[1]. That can be a very compelling negotiation tool.

Also, I don't think globalization is a good thing. I agree it would be good for the US economy short term, but really would just lead to turning the world into the equivalent of this pic: https://www.alamy.com/stock-image-american-culture-fast-food...

[1] - https://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0053_defense-comparison

Biden also called Xi a “thug” in the debates. This is definitely as strong a rhetoric as the current administration. However, like you mention, countries like India have a better response and more teeth than US.

I think that people are nervous that legitimate complaints about China may be a subterfuge to start some sort of bizarre conflict so the President can use 'rally-round-the-flag' as a way to boost re-election prospects.

While I agree that others should act, let's refrain from whataboutisms here. It is important to remember that, for the public, a lot of this has only come to light within the last year. And the public still believes the west needs China more than China needs the west. Plus there's the old Eddie Izzard joke.

> let's refrain from whataboutisms here

For economic sanctions to have their intended effect you need participation from a lot of countries so this doesn't feel appropriate to dismiss as a whataboutism

Regardless if you think Trump is actively or passively supporting Russia, leaving Russia to do as it will while stoking America vs China fires is a key pillar to Russian geopolitics. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics) “China, which represents a danger to Russia, "must, to the maximum degree possible, be dismantled””

Anything that hurts China and also the US while also ignoring Russia’s actions is, again knowingly or not, playing the exact hand they’d prefer the US to play.

You could also say that eg. Germany is now tied between picking the most trustful partner and that the current us administration is at least "doubtful".

While Chinese sanctions could be applied easier when partnerships are strong. It's hard to go "all-in" while the be administration is dropping a lot of agreements, just because they were made by the previous president.

Countries like China and Russia are trying to make the most advantage now they can.

To be fair Germany seems hellbent on making itself completely dependent on an evil, totalitarian regime (Mother Russia), while neglecting its NATO obligations. I wouldn't say they are setting a great example.

This is ludicrous interpretation. Here's Trump approving Uighur concentration camps during a private meeting with Xi: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53138833

>And wall street has already raised more money for democrats this past few months than republicans, because of the anti-China stance.

That's not why and you (probably) know it. In the off chance you don't: anti-China sentiment is popular among both parties. Pelosi has been chastising Trump publicly for delaying Chinese sanctions.

https://www.axios.com/pelosi-trump-china-uighur-sanctions-be...

Good grief that's quite the response. US is responding more than any other country and you say "well they could do better"? Progress should be praised, not criticized for not doing enough.

My own country is sadly not responding anywhere near to the level the US is.

I rarely wish I was American, but this strong stance against the CCP and it's horrific cruelties is one of those times I stand with America.

When it comes to food, China import food from other countries, just because they have a lot people and not enough food.

https://defensepoliticsasia.com/why-china-import-soybeans-fr...

It is weak but it's a good minimum. They're banning any product that might have been made from forced labor, which at least sends the message that the US won't be seen as complicit.

But agreed, I hope to see stronger sanctions soon.

I would find this more compelling if you gave examples or countries that had a stronger response, otherwise I don't see a reason to criticize this move.

There's a pretty big contigent of people in the USA who claim that any sort of sanctions against China are "sinking to their level" and will just hurt the poor factory employees, or that it's just Trump being racist and making up political reasons to hurt Chinese people.

I wonder if the same group of people would also be against boycotts of large companies because they would hurt individual workers?

I don't think it's about dependence. It's just hard to drum up political support given the geopolitics of the situation. Remember that it's only Western countries plus (including?) Japan who even say that there's a problem - much of Africa and the Middle East, including a huge fraction if not a majority of the world's Muslims, explicitly endorse China's actions in Xinjiang. It's not like apartheid, where the country might actually become a pariah if we can just organize against it; most of the world doesn't think China's doing anything wrong.

Not really, most of these countries ( African, Middle East and Pakistan ) don’t speak out because their economies depend on it (Belt and Road initiative). None of them have the stability to withstand economic sanctions against them by the Chinese.

I'm skeptical. Many of those same countries regularly speak out against the US, despite the clear economic advantage of staying friendly with Washington.

But even if it's true that China's just bullied a bunch of countries into being complicit, their complicity still does make a push for sanctions harder.

There's a clear distinction between the U.S. Government and the CCP. There's valid opposition and differing opinions _within_ Washington. The same cannot be said of CCP.

Infamous whistleblowers of the U.S. Government/Washington regularly get airtime. When was the last time you heard of a Snowden/Manning from the CCP?

Why and what would Pakistan speak out??

> much of Africa and the Middle East, including a huge fraction if not a majority of the world's Muslims, explicitly endorse China's actions in Xinjiang

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