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Comment by rwmj | Hacker News Reader

Why does the actual product need to be delivered to the fake reviewers? Surely “Kleinman candles” knows which addresses are fake and can simply not send the candles out to them.

Edit: I'm going to guess because these shady drop-ship companies use FBA and similar?

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> Why does the actual product need to be delivered to the fake reviewers?

Because Alibaba, and now Amazon require tracking numbers from sellers.

From time to time they take these tracking numbers, and check them with APIs of shipping companies, and postal services. If a seller has too many invalid tracking numbers, or shipments that don't match the address, they rm -rf him.

Why not check every tracking number when the cost to do so is so low?

I don't think tracking info APIs are particularly cheap at that scale. If the seller runs in high enough volume there is no need to check every single order to smell fraud.

I'm not so sure. I believe Amazon customers are getting a push notification on their mobile device for every delivery notification, which leads me to believe (at least in the case of Amazon) they have the data.

Robustness perhaps based upon "fluke" incidents leading to false positives having worse outcomes from being trigger happy on edge cases.

I'm pretty sure Amazon already does this. I have always received a delivery confirmation straight from Amazon, even for stuff shipped by a third party.

Yeah I am pretty sure Amazon works with most of their shippers because you can usually see all your shipping status information right in Amazon itself without having to leave Amazon to go view it. And like you mentioned there also are delivery notifications.

In fact the shipping company Amazon typically uses in my area takes pictures of their deliveries. So I get an email from the delivery company with a picture, but then Amazon also allows me to view the delivery picture on their site too and notifies me of the picture.

With how much server power Amazon has, I can't imagine them being afraid to make some API calls.

But you can ship a packet of flower seeds (cost: 10 cents and a stamp) instead of your expensive product, and your tracking obligation is dealt with.

Yes, exactly.

Congrats, you understand the scam.

My theory is that a seller wants to set up a legitimate (or legitimate-looking) storefront on Amazon to sell a real (or fake) product in the future.

Rather than build a reputation organically over time by selling real items, they could load up Amazon FBA bins with some cheap items, send them out to real addresses using fake accounts, and then leave fake reviews. When the process is all over, the store looks somewhat legit, since it's sold a bunch of items with great reviews, and the seller can then move on to selling the real (or fake) thing that they actually want to sell.

If I understand the scam correctly, the hypothetical seller "Kleinman candles" is the one performing the scam, in order to create fake reviews. Unless the purpose of the scam is to make the reviewer themself seem more credible.

I just have to wonder ... money has to change hands. Isn't there a cost to doing this, large enough to make it somewhat prohibitive? Even for really cheap items?

I thought so too, unless the item is really cheap. Or (like another poster suggested), it's to build up a reputation for the storefront.

It could be that the seller is simply paying some shady firm to improve their seller reputation. The shady salesman tells the store owner "Give me X dollars and I'll make sure you have a 99% 'good' rating". They take them money, buy a bunch of cheap junk and leave the fake reviews. The store owner may not even know they are fake.

High level ecomm experience w amazon person.

You would think so, but its really not because its a % of goods sale price. FBA merch fee is only 15%. That matters when items are cheap.

So for the cost of COGS + $5 product price *.15% + parcel cost ($4, lower for CN goods dropshipped from abroad). Assuming the good is made for pennies in CN, you are then talking less than $10 for a 5 star review.

Consider CPA in google , FB, or Amazon ("ACOS"), and you start seeing a trend. Keep in mind reviews scale, i.e. adword dollars are spent. Reviews accumulate. They are an asset, not an expense

I want $1M free dollars. I send 1000 packets of seeds with tracking numbers to 1000 random addresses, and then write 1000 fake 5-star "verified purchase" reviews. Total outlay? 1000 x $0.55 postage = $550.00.

I then take my 1000's of five-star review page, and start selling diamond earrings for $199.95. I collect $200k in cash from 1000 sellers who get duped, and never ship anything to anybody ever again.

Repeat x5 and you have $1M free dollars.

Why would you send seeds instead of sending 1000 empty envelopes?

I wonder if package weight is available in the tracking information that Amazon or other seller service can access?

That’s what I don’t get. Maybe if a customer received an empty envelope they would think something is up and report it? By sending a token item the receiver thinks it is a gift? But why not a postcard then which is easier to include?

Part of me wants to think this is an elaborate prank to see what happens when hundreds of people plant mutant seeds.

Maybe because you outsource fulfillment to a legitimate company, and they will find it strange to send empty envelopes?

So instead you give them seeds to ship which probably cost less than the envelope itself.

Gotta match the weight of the package to the product weight.

Uhm wouldn't the 5 star reviews be for seeds? Or is it trivial to change a listing for seeds to diamond earrings?

It's trivial to change the listing on Amazon. I've seen tons of Ship of Theseus listings like this where I'm looking at a reusable bag or a pair of headphones but the reviews are talking about shoes or a book. These listings usually sell genuine product that's cheap or crappy. The scammers usually use generic review text like "Great product! Thanks!" or "Worked great out of the box!" or "Exactly what I needed!"

Minimally the 1000 five-star reviews gives the merchant account credibility as "able to ship a product".

If you can't change the product listing (Seeds2.0, now they're Diamond Earrings!), your "company" at least starts off with 1000 five-star reviews from your other product(s).

Wouldn't the cost be more than your hypothetical $550? Since they are buying their own items on Amazon, isn't Amazon still taking a cut from it?

I think this is part of the problem. Amazon still earns money off these fakes. This almost seems similar to the business just buying ads, except I bet this is a cheaper version of ads and is more effective

I suspect that they actually ship the products in order to look legitimate by providing a valid shipping label/number that can be tracked through a trusted mail carrier service.

yeah but then can’t you send and empty box? or fill it with junk if you need weight?

Isn't that exactly what they're doing? Filling it with junk?

my impression is they are sending people actual items that seem new

Seeds?

as mentioned in the article, and from people i actually know IRL, people are receiving electronics or dog toys etc..

Oh yes, people get all kinds of crap in brushing schemes. Currently, though, tons of people are getting seeds, which people suspect is some sort of large-scale brushing mega-project.

Are people actually comparing the items that they received to the items in the fraudulent reviews made using their address? It seems unlikely, so I just assumed they weren't.

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