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Comment by jaywalk | Hacker News Reader

Ridiculous thing to say. I am a small government person, and I believe taxation is theft. However, I am a realist and so I recognize that taxes are part of our reality. I am 100% in favor of the IRS making it as easy as possible for people to do their taxes, because they already have 99% of the info needed.

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You may think it's a ridiculous thing to say, and I also think it's a ridiculous thing to say. But Grover Norquist uses this exact line of reasoning when arguing against the IRS pre-populating taxes - and Grover Norquist has enormous influence on what policy positions many Republicans take regarding taxes.

edit: transcript from an NPR interview where Norquist takes this position: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/521132960

> I believe taxation is theft

> However, I am a realist

Choose one.

I have no idea how you see those two things as mutually exclusive.

If taxation is theft, so are the vast majority of jobs.

I have a choice of jobs, including working for myself. I have no choice in paying taxes.

> I have a choice of jobs, including working for myself. I have no choice in paying taxes.

You totally do have choice to not pay your taxes, just like you have a choice to not pay your rent or mortgage or renege on other kinds of private contracts. The making those choices may lead to outcomes that aren't good for you, but it doesn't mean you have no choice.

You can move to a place with no income tax. Now, you might argue that is impractical, but so getting a non-shit job for many people.

I happen to think the government should impose taxes, and tax evasion is a moral failing, but I also recognized people were born into a contract with the government, and I'm not going to argue that's fair.

The fact is that the government, like a thief, says to a man: Your money, or your life. And many, if not most, taxes are paid under the compulsion of that threat.

The government does not, indeed, waylay a man in a lonely place, spring upon him from the road side, and, holding a pistol to his head, proceed to rifle his pockets. But the robbery is none the less a robbery on that account; and it is far more dastardly and shameful.

--Lysander Spooner

> The fact is that the government, like a thief, says to a man: Your money, or your life. And many, if not most, taxes are paid under the compulsion of that threat.

Yes, but I like civil society, infrastructure, paved roads and what little social safety net we have in this country, so...

So you see taxes as necessary. That's fine. It doesn't invalidate the point being made.

But are taxes really theft if I'm willing to pay them and I'm getting something of value back in return?

Maybe it's extortionate, but the entire premise of government and the social contract is extortionate to a degree.

Ahh yes, the running joke of "But who will pave the roads", this has be debunked so many times it is now a meme in libertarian circles yet people still bring it up anyone some mentions that income based taxation is theft.

Sad reality is most private roads are better maintained than the public roads which driving to my home everyday is like a obstacle course.

Then there is the fact the vast majority of Roads (in the US) are paid for not with Income taxes but with User Fee's such as Gas Taxes, Car Registration, Wheel Taxes, Tire Fee's, Sales Taxes on Cars, and many other sources

But hey let keep up with the narrative that with out income taxes we would all be driving on mud paths

> and I believe taxation is theft

Money, taxes, and the crime of theft are all creatures of the law. Taxes aren't theft because that would be a literal contradiction. Taxes are just part of the rules about how money operates.

I should also note that 1) the law isn't just what some individual or other feels is natural, 2) I'd imagine that primitive law that defines theft also defines obligations to the community (which are analogous to taxes).

> I believe taxation is theft

Then please stop using the things we fund with them. Roads, GPS, etc.

I'm funding them too, so no.

What's the point of your belief if you know it can't happen?

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