The US Army spent millions developing giant, six-legged walking trucks in 1980s
thedrive.com
thedrive.com
The designer was really into four-bar linkages. The leg mechanism is set up so that one actuator moves the leg in X, one in Y, and one in Z, with a four-bar linkage encoding that into the leg position. This simplifies the control problem, while complicating the mechanics. I suspect they wanted to be able to get the thing home by manual control of the actuators if the computers crashed. It's not towable; you'd need a crane and a flatbed.
It could only walk on flat ground. It was supposed to be able to cross a ditch, but that was manual. The driver had to drive it up to the ditch and stop. Then lock five legs, and, using a joystick, move one of the leading legs across the ditch and set it down. Then, with support in place, move the vehicle forward slightly with no leg lifts. Then lock five legs again, and place the second forward leg. Repeat until all six legs had made it across.
Cool, but not useful.
In the 1990s, a company in Finland got this right.[1] They built a six-legged walking timber harvester. It's impressive. Deere bought the company But it's not better than 8-wheel articulated timber harvesters [2], so it was never produced as a product.
I don't suppose you have a pointer to an IK paper on the 4-bar linkages do you? Looks like something that might be fun to cons up with servos.
It's an interesting piece of history, but there's no need to do it that way today.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Machines-That-Walk-Adaptive-Suspensio...
(and I don't know, if we just had bad luck, or he had fun messing us, but we were quite hidden)
So we felt a bit like hunted ...
(ah yeah, also because a hunter was shooting close to us, without noticing us)
I would very much welcome it. I really hate, having all the forests paths messed up in the wood cutting season.
But most forest paths are not driven (or walked) 500 times back and forth. Sometimes just once to go in, cut down and take it out. Enough to cut open the soil with the conventional foresters - but much less intrusive with mechanic legs.
(for those of you who aren't familiar with the english method: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soPp06vwwiI )
In those instances, there is no ecological consideration as the whole area basically gets wiped out.
It's true that most forests today are not old growth anymore. They have been cut (usually clear cut) and then either replanted or just naturally reseeded and are now essentially waiting for the next cut. There are some areas where they are monocultural tree farms with not much else growing, but forest industry starts to realize that that's not the most efficient anyway. Most forests today, even those used for lumber (which are almost all) are integrated ecosystems. That's a great benefit to nature.
Clear cutting is quite bad for the surrounding ecosystem. Habitat loss, soil erosion, it's a pretty traumatic event for a forest. (Some shrubs really thrive for a few years after a clear cut though. In Sweden that's when you get to pick tons of wild raspberries, for example.)
An alternative is selective cutting where you only cut the oldest trees and leave everything intact. For that, such a legged harvester would be much better. The traditional method is to use horses, but that's too slow for modern forest industry.
And here, I can assure you they are very much mono culture, evenly spaced, engineered species of trees, almost nothing else happens on the land in that time period. (generally it looks pretty similar to this https://a.rgbimg.com/users/p/pa/paparabbit/600/mwYGk8q.jpg) They do come and selectively thing at 5, 10, or 15 depending)
See the issue is, at least in the southern U.S. they clear cut nearly everything in the 1800s. There is very little old growth left.
P.S. As for mono culture timber, there is a reason almost no one in the US knows what a curant is. They (are/were) illegal in the US, because they are for a vector for a fungus that can wipe out timber pines.
I pity them. Real forest is something very different, than a wood farm.
With the recent droughts and dying out of the monoculture spruce, more and more mixed forest is coming back to europe. Idealism brought a little change, but the big drive was the huge economical loss of the timber industry that forced them to rethink how to do things.
There is a middle ground between the monoculture you describe and old growth. You can have an intact ecosystem with something every biologist would call "forest" even if you now and then strategically harvest some trees. We are almost 8bn people on this planet and we can't make do without lumber. All alternatives are much worse. Want to use plastic for everything? Steel? Concrete? We need to find a sustainable middle ground.
Linville Gorge being a notable exception:
You sure about that? Soil compaction is the most serious long-term damage caused by timber harvesting. It's why only tracked harvesters driven by highly-paid fellers are allowed off the gravel. The masses of everyday log-truck drivers (and their wheeled vehicles) are not allowed on the dirt.
You want the ground pressure spread out as much as possible, not concentrated on tiny "feet".
"It's why only tracked harvesters driven by highly-paid fellers are allowed off the gravel."
And this is sadly not true for germany or other parts of europe I know about. I think I never saw a tracked forester in europe. Are they mandatory in the US? That would surprise me, given they have much more lax regulations in general (fracking for example)
https://www.mainecustomwoodlands.com/maine-custom-woodlands-...
Only thing non-tracked that goes off the gravel logging roads would be the Skidder (it literally drags bunches, or 'hitches' of trees to the transport vehicles). And even that might be partially or fully-tracked.
The feller, slasher, excavator, bulldozer, etc. are all tracked from what I've seen.
Mandatory? Doubtful. But they are most practical in the rough terrain.
I didn't mean to imply there was a government mandate. It's the large forestland owners who demand it of their contractors.
Compaction is much, much worse. It takes a century or more to undo in temperate rainforests like the Olympic Peninsula.
Super cool though. Would be a nice way to selectively take out trees without tearing up a whole area for access, etc.
My yard is a forest. I have a mini excavator with tracks and I can sneak in and out of places without disturbing things too much - as long as I don't have to turn sharp (and the ground isn't too wet). I think the walking machines might have an advantage there. The tracks can only slide sideways when you turn, that tears stuff up.
Our Douglas Fir stand is on good soil, but getting to it is a little tricky. Getting a bit easier though after 3 years of blackberry removal, and tree limbing (to reduce wildfire risk and improve trails etc).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBgzkKqCXzw
(Menzi Mucks are available with forestry attachments)
Bonus clip: (multi-metre obstacle) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y85nfQuU0M
I guess it’s just to catch the eye and then one can find all the info later, but still.
Well, now I'm wondering what they needed eleven onboard minicomputers for. How much route planning intelligence do you really need if you're operating over identical terrain every time?
I'm guessing that'd massively complicate things...
To actually deliver a physical, one-of-a-kind, working vehicle of that scale & novel function, for low-digit millions, seems pretty impressive to me - especially if the effort documented enough of their choices/discoveries/limitations to help inform later efforts.
Planning foot placement is a bit harder but I would say the compute heavy part today would be perception.
But figuring out where to place the feet, which I consider a perception problem, is very hard. But I think that’s what you’re talking about and I just use different terminology. That’s why I was confused. Sorry if I came off wrong.
[1] https://archive.macleans.ca/article/1985/11/4/the-pentagon-f...
[2] https://www.inflationtool.com/us-dollar/1981-to-present-valu...
A two ton diesel powered hexapod.
DARPA R&D money always feels like money better spent than a lot of other military spending. We get future dividends, often civilian.
He argues the same point about the states roll in RnD (also explicitly calls out DARPA) and also their role in booms and busts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Production_Act_of_1950...
[1] as far as I've seen, soviet vending machines used a shared glass. They must've been very confident both (a) that the glasses wouldn't grow legs, and (b) in their public health initiatives.
Whether the US Army needs 9000 tanks is a separate discussion though.
If you're looking at needing to fight China and Russia, at the same time, over an extended period of time (2+ years), having 9,000 tanks in your back pocket seems like a good idea.
Also, it's a jobs/pork barrel program. Congress keeps ordering tanks that the Army puts into storage because the M1 is a beast of a machine that keeps a lot of people employed. The US manufacturing base is pretty depleted, and ordering tanks you don't necessarily need is a good way to keep the skills and tool chains you could need in the future around.
Sure, that's nothing new to anyone who's familiar with Cold War economics. The Soviet Union was able to keep its economy crawling along without sanctioning free enterprise by making enormous investments into collectively-owned (i.e. state-owned) products like nuclear submarines and combat aircraft. Turns out you can achieve much the same goal but also benefit the people if you put that effort into state-funded infrastructure. Whether the US body politic will support reducing M1 Abrams production in favour of fixing the USA's crumbling infrastructure is again a separate discussion.
More precisely: for the 2020 fiscal year, the US Army did not procure any new M1 Abrams tank, and is not budgeting any for the 2021 year either. Instead it is modernizing existing tanks at a cost of $1.7 BN for 165 units in '20, and $1 BN for 89 units in '21. This comes at about $10.6 MM per tank.
[1] https://www.asafm.army.mil/Portals/72/Documents/BudgetMateri...
[2] https://www.asafm.army.mil/Portals/72/Documents/BudgetMateri...
Given the lack of research, but perhaps the high experimentation, millions make sense.
Building the prototype at full scale, not so much. If they'd gone through a few iterations starting with a dog sized version, it might have worked out better. But there was a political problem. DARPA funded a pony-sized legged walker in the late 1960s[2], and it was publicly shamed as a waste of taxpayer money by Sen. Proxmire. So DARPA went for one big enough to carry a real load.
Early thinking about legged locomotion was all about gait and foot placement. It turns out that balance dominates foot placement, and slip control dominates balance once you get off the flat.
Today, most of the problems have been solved, and there's still no market. Which is disappointing.
[1] https://youtu.be/coNO9FpDb6E
[2] http://cyberneticzoo.com/walking-machines/1968-phony-pony-fr...
I was curious; the Manhattan Project cost $2 billion (in 1939) and employed 130,000 people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project, first paragraph).
One of the key differences between now and then is the monumental improvement in computing power, sensors, hardware in general and energy storage. As a result the devices we produce today look far more impressive. Think about it this way: I don't think there's anything in a Roomba that did not exist in the 1980's other than far greater computing power at a very low cost.
It is an interesting exercise to look through the Old Robots site (www.theoldrobots.com). One of my favorite's (because I owned one and still have a couple of arms on the shelf) is the Hero 2000:
http://www.theoldrobots.com/hero2k.html
Check out the specifications here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HERO_(robot)
It took an Intel 8088 processor and 11 Z-80 8 bit processors to run this thing in the early 90's. That cost thousands of dollars. Today you can to a thousand times more with a $5 to $30 single chip processor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWX9iRw33OE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHoJ2naN5HI
Again, considering available computing power, sensors, etc., this was nothing short of amazing.
Would you be open to digitizing these books via the Internet Archive, or something similar?
If they're sufficiently technical, you may have the only copy in the world for some of them.
https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Artificial-Intelligence-Avro...
https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/parallel-distributed-processi...
https://www.amazon.com/Neural-Massively-Parallel-Computers-B...
https://www.amazon.com/Connection-Machine-Press-Artificial-I...
https://www.amazon.com/Legged-Robots-Balance-Artificial-Inte...
https://www.amazon.com/Machines-That-Walk-Adaptive-Suspensio...
...and more.
High energy density batteries as well.
My off-brand Roomba clone uses 4 18650 lipo cells @40-50g each, a total of ~40WHr for under 200g.
That 40WHr would need about 1kg of lead acid battery, or maybe 7-800g of NiCad battery.
The whole 1 hour interview is also interesting.
I understand how people outside the US might not understand this, but it always surprises me complaints about "military spending" from educated Americans that don't understand these are actually enormous investments by the US government into general applied science.
The Army did not spend millions of dollars on a giant walking robot. The US government, by way of military spending, invested in research of the things required to build such a machine.
You could just as easily manage this funding process somewhere else with different priorities. We've been moving university research funding out of the NSF towards defense budgets quite aggressively over the last two decades, and it's quite palpable how shifting control of this funding from pure science oversight to military oversight has reshaped priorities.
Care to expand on this? There's an awful lot of insects with six legs that seem to do OK. Maybe I've watched too much Patlabor/GitS but I would have thought it a viable candidate for any number of mechanical platforms.
We all get older
Regardless of the design, it makes sense why they scrapped it.
(Though I'm not aware of any homebuilt multi rotors up in the 485lb plus a ~170lb pilot range. Yet.)
Give me $30k, and I’ll build you a multicopter capable of delivering a 500lb payload 1km away made mostly out of hobby parts. It’s no longer rocket science.
Go ahead, next time you're on bar with your friends (In a few months I think the bar are going to be open - hope) tell them this exactly headline and see how they react to it.
I don't think many Americans would doubt our military has funded all sorts of crazy stuff. There are confirmed paid studies for mind control and attempting to kill goats using telekinesis by the CIA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Stare_at_Goats
It's even been made into a Hollywood movie, so this stuff isn't that fringe. And the fringe stuff is really weird.
I tend to optimistically/pessimistically believe people are rational but devious, and therefore believe that goat-staring is likely a way to launder money that immediately leads people into talking about how silly attempted telecapricide would be, instead of asking, no, really, what did you totally not get compensated for not having done, the other 39 hours of the week?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23597523
Bonus track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuduj0yeV4c
It's actually impressive how versatile wheels are - a legged truck would have to move much faster and be able to cross some extreme terrain to be a better choice than something with 4+ big wheels.
You probably won't get very far considering that is a different university.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachikoma
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-IsysrqUlU (original tank fight scene, may spoil it a bit).
http://cyberneticzoo.com/walking-machines/1983-six-legged-hy...
Its probably because of my Euro socialist identity but all I see is wasteful spending.
Even reallocating those expenses by a quarter would be a tremendous boon to our social services infrastructure while still allowing us to invest in new technologies.
Reducing America's global footprint would also likely have the effect of producing a massive global political realignment, as nations in an increasingly multipolar world would need to adjust their security policies in order to face the potential challenges of existing without a global hegemony interested in fixing national borders and guaranteeing the secure flow of trade good worldwide.
This resulting uncertainty would, I believe increase the relative value of maintaining a presence large internally stable (relatively speaking) markets like the NAFTA, while reducing the viability of complex, brittle supply chains dependent on outsourcing the production of many individual components overseas.
With companies increasingly incentivised to produce where they sell their good, the power disparity between laborers and corporate entities would be reduced, as their labor force and their consumer base would be either the same, or intermingled. With workers better able to negotiate terms with their employers, rather than be forced to increase benefits for their workers, companies might find it more expedient to outsource the provision of a social safety net to federal and state governments through lobbying efforts.
None of this, of course fixes the general administrative incompetency of the American government. But it also sets the stage for a greater latitude of internal reforms by simplifying the machine that's in motion, as well as reducing its number of foreign dependents.
If the EU decided to allocate a proportional share to their common defense, maybe the US would have less reason to be intervening overseas and could spend some of our money here instead.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Passage
[1] might this geomilitaristic argument fly as a US pro-environment domestic argument?