Woman hatches ducks from Waitrose eggs | Hacker News Reader

Woman hatches ducks from Waitrose eggs

bbc.com

77 pointsgscott72 comments

It's a little misleading to call them "Waitrose eggs". This brand is for sale in Tesco and Morrison's as well, for starters. Someone else did the same stunt of incubating and hatching this brand of duck egg bought from Sainsbury in July of this year.

* http://diazhub.com/australia/animal-lover-takes-home-2-60-bo...

And there was a teenage boy from Sutton Coldfield who did the same stunt back in February 2019.

* https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/19/teenage-boy-hatches-duck-egg-...

People have done similar with quail eggs as well.

Not really a "stunt"... it's easy.

Yeah, I clicked largely because I was wondering what Waitrose eggs were. I thought maybe she'd end up with cockatrices or something.

If you find that headline misleading, know that if this had happened in the USA, it could have read “Woman hatches ducks from Giant Eagle eggs”

If you are in the USA you are possibly missing some of the subtle context here. Waitrose has been a hot topic in the news this summer in the U.K., as it has just finished a divorce from its erstwhile on-line delivery company Ocado. This has resulted in a lot of "Waitrose" news. It has also resulted in things such as quite close to attack advertisements running on Classic FM, reported to me by a relative, both a shock to hear on the rather tame Classic FM and quite close to the boundaries of the Advertising Standards Authority broadcast code of practice.

* https://bbc.co.uk/news/business-53971834

* https://marketingweek.com/waitrose-marketing-campaign-ocado/

* https://asa.org.uk/type/broadcast/code_section/03.html

This was another not really "Waitrose" story. The brand here, common to all of the stories, is Clarence Court, and it is sold in multiple supermarkets. Notice that the story about Francesca Anker from Kenilworth didn't bother quoting the supermarket at all, unlike the BBC, and quoted M. Anker (who had something to say on the subject of keeping drakes around in a free-range farm, that would have informed commentary in this very discussion) and "a Clarence Court spokesman". The Daily Mail did a better job of reporting this than the BBC.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Per...

Yes, that Daily Mail.

People hatch quail eggs, duck eggs, and chicken eggs from markets in every state I've lived in, for fun or farm. Asian markets tend to be the best source for fertilized, viable, eggs (eg 99 Ranch Market, H-mart, etc).

I'm no expert in chicken rearing but isn't it quite likely that the more "free range" your eggs are raised the more chance of accidental having a fertalized egg? Seems much less likely in caged hens (at significant harm to the chicken of course).

"Free range" isn't super free ranging, as such - it tends to be achieved still with very restrictive conditions. With ones which really properly can roam about in a large outdoor area, yeah it seems the likelihood would go up, but I think those are fairly unusual at least in the UK

I happen to live near one of the larger “proper” free range farms - Sherston Free Range eggs [1]. The photos on their website really don’t lie - in fact, there’s a local pub that often has “visits” from the chickens, wandering over from their fields. They lay some of the nicest eggs around too!

1. https://www.sherstonfreerangeeggs.co.uk/

Most free range eggs are nothing more than branding just like fair trade coffee.

If it’s a large industrial farm free range or not the likelihood of the eggs being fertilized is pretty much zero, smaller farmstead/homestead farms that sell their eggs directly or to resellers can often have fertilized eggs tho.

There are pretty solid legal requirements for describing an egg as "free range" within the EU (or UK), which are clear on things like the stocking density, access to outdoor space etc.

I don't think there is any reasonable basis for your view that this is "nothing more than branding".

I think you might want to check up on those high standards.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/28/secret-camera-films-chickens-...

And even without violations like this the regulation is extremely murky and the requirements are laughable the UK standard for free range eggs allows for no more than 13 hens per square meter not only that even if it was accounted for correctly it isn’t any better than regular farming the regulation grants a lot of freedom for how this is calculated and most farms reach that figure by counting in areas that the chickens can’t actually roam in.

But sure if 13 hens per meter is free range to you then yes the U.K. and the EU have very strict regulations indeed.

The EU legal requirement for free-range eggs is a maximum stocking density of 9 hens per square meter, plus 4 square meters per hen of outdoor space, and continuous access to the outdoors during daylight hours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-range_eggs#European_Union

Eggs certifications like Red Lion, RSPCA, and organic soil association all specify stricter standards than the legal requirements.

That wikipedia link is out of date, the RSPCA specifies 13 birds per square meter for it's free range certification.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/shortcuts/2017/feb/...

I think you really should read the actual certification requirements, free range is a joke.

~In fact, your link is out of date~ (edit - see below). Here's the RSPCA specification from August 2017:

https://science.rspca.org.uk/documents/1494935/9042554/RSPCA...

Point E 5.3 specifies no more than 9 hens per square metre of indoor space. If I'm reading correctly, this applies to both free-range and barn hens. Free range hens also need outdoor space at a density of no more than 2500 birds per hectare, which works out to 4 square metres per bird (although 1 m2 is allowed for birds under 21 weeks old). That's also the EU rule for 'free range' eggs.

The RSPCA spec is about 100 pages of details about popholes, lighting, water, and so on. Whether it's effectively enforced, I can't tell, but it's not a joke.

Edit: My bad, the Guardian article also says 9 birds per square metre for free range eggs. Free-range chickens raised for meat can be kept at a higher density than laying hens: 13 per square metre indoors and 1 square metre outdoor space. But eggs are the topic here.

The RSPCA's opinion on the matter is irrelevant. The UK is bound by EU law. While it will be able to deviate as of January, this is an area that, in practice, it will probably be unwilling to move on in the short to medium; it would be politically damaging (because one argument against Brexit is that it will lead to diminished food standards) for limited returns.

You can draw no useful information about standards from an article like that – producers who violate legal standards should be prosecuted, and that's an orthogonal issue to the standards themselves.

I also don't think that your statements are actually correct. My understanding is that "13 hens per square meter" is actually "9 hens per square meter" since 2012, and this is the requirement for indoor space only – in addition, "free range eggs" have pretty clear stipulations for the level of outdoor access which is required (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...).

I mean, if your complaint is that producers are exploiting loopholes to get around regulations, or that they're just not following them and there's insufficient enforcement, then sure – that's a problem, and one that should be fixed. But it's harder to do that while not being clear about the current state of regulation and the problems faced.

9 hens per sqm indoor space, these days. 1 hen per 4 sqm outdoor space: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_range#European_Union

There are specific rules about what can be counted.

Fertilisation still seems rather unlikely, though.

If Morgan Spurlock¹ is correct, then in the US, it is indeed closer to branding than a qualitatively different life for the chickens, from the perspective of an ordinary consumer.

¹https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Size_Me_2:_Holy_Chicken!

Free range eggs are also more expensive- so if someone claims the free range label they get more money. If they commit fraud by not keeping to the standards they are committing a crime.

You should check the stamp on the egg. The first number is how the chicken was raised. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_marking#Producer_code

Free range is not necessarily what a person would expect of free range. The farm can pack 9 hens per square meter with some outdoor space available at times.

> Free range is definitely not what a person would think of free range.

Yup, it's a scam. Deceptive marketing.

What people think of as free range they'll find if they buy "pastured eggs" (in Australia at least).

I've edited my message, the European standard is not that bad actually, 4 square meter per hen of external space.

Australian regulations seem to be a joke though.

It's still misleading in Sweden, even though we're in the EU. Here it's called "frigående" (free-walking, or free-range) which for hens just means that they are not kept in small cages. The free-range version with access to the outdoor is called "ecological" (16% of the hens).

When people buy eggs in Sweden from "free-walking" hens, they expect them to be outdoors in the sun, but instead they are kept indoors with a maximum of 9 hens per square meter and up to 10.000 hens in a barn.

It's not easy to find an English description of this, so here are some Swedish articles:

Wikipedia:

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frig%C3%A5ende_djur

Swedish Egg, an organization from the egg industry:

https://www.svenskaagg.se/?p=19891&m=3959

Djurens Rätt, an animal rights group:

https://www.djurensratt.se/djur-i-livsmedelsindustrin/honor-...

This is interesting. The EU regulations include a table with what each grade can be called in different languages (p 24 of https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSL...). The grade called 'barn' in English can be called 'frigående inne' (free indoors) in Swedish. The English term 'free range' officially corresponds to 'frigående ute'.

In most of these languages, the term for barn eggs (hens indoors without cages) seems to refer to ground, soil, or scratching. Swedish seems to be an outlier in applying a word like 'free' to this grade.

In Finland none of the official terms uses "free" or equivalent, but barn eggs are still permitted to be branded "free hens' eggs" in marketing. So the "free" there doesn't mean "free range", just "non-caged". Myself, I just buy organic eggs these days.

I assume that "free indoors" is like keeping them in a massive warehouse where they can walk around, but with a other 9,999 animals around them. Technically they can walk around, realistically they can't make half a step before bumping to 10 other animals, and they poop all over, thus the needs for antibiotics. The "out in the open" is not happening for most farms.

Bear in mind that there is massive variation globally. US "free range" is pretty much a scam, yes; EU rules are pretty clear.

Free range is not uncommon in Europe

In any case the pasture will not look flawless all around the year unless you have a lot of water. Chicken eat it, will scratch until reach rock and will make holes to take sunbaths. In summer the soil will have a lot of dry patches and in a harsh winter the hens will prefer to stay inside all day. They are very sociable animals but there will be always a few omega hens looking a little plucked.

Anyone thinking that "zero animal cruelty" is a realistic goal in a flock of chickens, is delusional. They have a different relationship with pain than us.

I have just pulled a box of this very brand of duck eggs from my kitchen. There are no stamps on the eggs.

The code on the carton is UK.1.666.L . This is not a Lion mark, and the code is not in the right format for a Lion egg. I don't know whether different schemes apply for duck eggs. The "1" is suggestive.

There is a video on youtube, where a farm threw away expired eggs and they hatched in the dumpster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGFq-qpkvbA

I'm guessing those must have been unwanted eggs from a chicken hatchery. Not expired eggs that were intended for consumption!

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGFq-qpkvbA

wild predators definitely had a good meal that week!

Well, chickens will eat anything. So, the first few probably died of starvation.

The last ones though, could have become pretty fat. ;)

How can you demonstrate better that a product is in a healty and natural condition?

It's more like they were raised in farms with one common space for the birds, still extremely cramped with probably no grass or natural light but maybe slightly better than battery cages.

They'd like you to believe that the 130 farms they collect eggs from resemble the one they videoed - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9MZdfAUlXs - but it's hard to evidence objectively.

Clarence Court's eggs are pretty expensive compared to other brands -- obviously that's nothing to do with conditions but I can say all the ones I've bought so far have been really, consistently good quality.

I'll be very disappointed if I find they're battery-farming too.

It would be fantastic if all farms were like that! Industrial animal farming is the most profitable and scalable from a business perspective, but horrifying from a moral point of view.

> Our farmers work hard to ensure ducks and drakes are separated correctly. As a result of this difficulty in sexing, a male white-feathered duck may very occasionally be left with a group of females, although, these instances are extremely rare.

I assumed that the issue was with the scale of duck farming; small independent farmers do not have the scale to separate the male(s). If true, a rogue drake is a more interesting scenario that can be considered an unintentional experiment in (un)natural selection.

I know someone who went around with their kids, buying half a dozen eggs from various different farm shops and stalls and supermarkets.

They wrote the date and shop on each egg and put them under their own chickens as an experiment.

It surprised me just how many actually hatched!

A really fun project if you have your own chickens.

I'm really surprised. I'm not a farm person in any way, and from what I learned the male chickens are close to useless and most hens have never been close to a male their entire life. It seems the separation is not that strict though.

You don't need a rooster to make hens lay eggs. A normal hen lays an egg most days, even without a rooster.

You do need a rooster if you want fertile eggs, though.

A normal backyard flock needs a rooster to get fertile eggs to raise to perpetuate the flock. This is why backyard and small farm flocks usually have one.

I can't think of anyone keeping chickens and not having a rooster, although I live in the countryside where their cock-a-doodle-do is tolerated or even loved. I'm guessing if you keep hens in suburbia you'd have to buy chicks somewhere rather than have a rooster.

Big battery farms though? I have no idea if they have some barns with roosters to perpetuate the flock or if they buy in chicks from specialized rooster farms or something?...

Most people that I know who keep chickens don't have a rooster, but share one with others from time to time... or just don't bother. (these are people keeping ~5 hens).

And yes, I realise how eggs work :)

Most people I know who have just a few chickens don't usually have a rooster.

However, if you have a flock roosters can be useful. Normally if you introduce hens to an existing flock they will fight for a while, but a rooster will act to "keep the peace".

Having (paranoid) roosters taking care of the hens makes a difference with predators. In free range they are definitely a valuable member of the flock. Most hens are happier with roosters.

And they are nice birds to watch

How is this news? The title made me think maybe the egg should have been of something other than a duck hence the upset but no. DUCK EGG HATCHES DUCK ain't nature wild?....

I am reminded of what an uncle of mine who raised chickens said, "It only takes time and patience to feed a family of four on one egg."

Raising ducks though can be pretty challenging, especially if they imprint on you and follow you around everywhere.

>It only takes time and patience to feed a family of four on one egg.

... and enough feed for a family of four

> "There may also be instances when a wild duck encounters farmed drakes, but again, this is rare," he said.

Wait... drakes are the males. Surely he means a wild drake encountering farmed ducks? Odd that a spokesman would get this wrong.

It works both ways, you can sometimes see weird colored ducks in flock of wild ducks. These are most probably crossbreeds with domestic animals.

Yeah but those eggs aren't going to end up in a supermarket carton, are they?

I actually saw what I believe was a cross-bred duck the other week. It had the green head of a mallard drake, but the body was black and white which I've never seen before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Wa_P-tDNlE

Eggs. How do they work?

Nature finds a way...

For those that don't know, you can tell a fertilized egg from a unfertilized egg by looking closely at the yolk after breaking it open. A fertilized egg has a red dot, while an unfertilized egg has a white dot.

Edit: after googling a bit looking for evidence. I discovered this is a popular myth that I've known since childhood.

Can you back this with a link?

This is a common myth, but it is false. The “red dot” is just a blood spot that sometimes occurs as part of the egg formation process, not an indicator of fertilisation!

https://qz.com/431136/heres-why-your-brown-eggs-have-more-bl...

It’s pretty much impossible for a commercially-produced hens egg to be fertilised. Duck eggs are a bit different because they tend to be produced on smaller farms, where they can come in to contact with wild ducks.

Edit: It’s also apparently much more difficult to tell male ducks apart from female ones, compared to chickens. One article says the most reliable method is to “listen to the sound of their quacks”!

The most common type of duck over here is the mallard, which shows quite strong sexual dimorphism. It's way easier to tell male from female than chickens.

Mallard drakes molt twice a year, taking on the brown plumage of the female sometime after the 5 month mating season.

It is usually very easy to tell drakes and ducks apart due to the very colorful plumage of males in many species of duck.

The problem being that drakes shed feathers a few times a year, and the drakes wear the same feathers as the ducks for at least some of the year. However, this is usually outside the mating season, and shouldn't really be a problem.

The ducks in the photo belong to a entirely white breed. Those are much difficult to sex with only a solid difference in morphology: the curly feathers over the tail are exclusive of the male.

I guess they mean it is difficult to tell apart by just looking at their feathers.

Male ducks have penises though so you could determine the sex by looking at the vent, but this is best left to a vet apparently.

Almost. Blood dots happen in both fertilized and unfertilized eggs so the red dot is not an indicator of anything aside from stress in the hen.

The white dot is the germinal disc and in an unfertilized egg it is solid. In a fertilized egg, it has a little halo which will grow wide after incubating for a few hours.

The white dots are sometimes the chalazae, which are strings that keep the yolk centred.

https://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/Chalazae.htm

I don't know much about eggs or birds, but I've always been told birds are meant to keep their eggs warm. Seems like trying to hatch eggs that have been in on a shelf for an unknown amount of time could carry a real risk of some tragically deformed pets.

Ducks have a system for this -- they lay an egg a day but won't start incubating them until they have laid their full clutch. The eggs won't start developing until the bird starts incubating them, and they can remain in this state for quite a while especially if kept cold.

Yup. Worked on a turkey egg (for hatching) farm. The eggs were kept cold until they reach the hatchery for the same reason.

Eggs are similar to plant seeds in a way, keeping them cold can delay the development of the embryo by weeks, and they'll still hatch healthy most of the time.

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