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Comment by jakozaur | Hacker News Reader

Emigrating from Belarus to Poland is easy. Even if one of your grandparents has Polish origins you can get easily equivalent of USA green card. Polish governament is working on new law to make it even easier and available more broadly. Given Poland borders before World War II were covering huge part of today Belarus a lot of people can take of the advantage.

Regular work permit for IT proffesional is also rubber stamp. Nothing compared to cruel H1B.

I guess same as after Ukraine revolution, a lot of Belarusians will end up in Poland.

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From my friends in Poland I hear many of them are considering moving after the latest election and the direction the country seems to be heading. Good to know there are tech workers from Belarus to step into their positions.

If they get an EU citizenship, they may not stay in Poland for long.

Most likely they will want to stay close to Belarus, as most will have family that remains and be hopeful that their country improves in the future.

> be hopeful that their country improves in the future

Yes, but things can go into the other direction too, if for example the EU takes over and their good old country turns into another failed state ala Ukraine...

If the EU takes over they are more likely turn into a failed state? Not quite sure I'm getting what you mean.

In any internet topic covering Ukraine or Belarus, you can find at least one toxic Russian actively hating its Western neighbors.

Only that they don't have to be Russian. One can be a westerner and still be able to think by itself.

PS: sometimes I'm a Chinese too.

Perhaps we can strip the nationalistic posturing and just say it is toxic then.

Which means, most probably you never been to Ukraine or Belarus, but you mock or hate them simply for the fact of belonging to their nation. Congrats, this is what nazis during WWII did. What people like you still do.

Well, it doesn't usually take much time until one starts talking about nazis in a debate, does it? But I'm sure the pro-EU Ukrainians who ousted their legitimate president in 2014 would be very proud of me if I were a nazi, though...

https://hoaxeye.com/2014/12/22/nazi-flags-in-ukraine/

I'm quite sure Russian Nazis with official party would be proud of you even more than freaks from staged photo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_National_Unity

FYI, I am Russian myself, I've been to Ukraine many times, and the only problem I spotted is proximity of Russian regime and Russian occupation. And of course, St.Petersburg Lahta workers like you.

Ukraine was taken over by EU? What? This reads like gobbledygook

Even reading this charitably this reads like you need serious help re-discovering the world and what's going on in it.

Don't worry, I hope Mr. Navalny resumes his blogging soon so I can be as well informed as you are

Germany is just one country further; flights are fast and dirt cheap. If you go abroad, might as well go to a place where salaries are higher.

Surprisingly enough, tech salaries are not that much higher in Germany than they are in Poland. In Germany, the tech wages are surprisingly low, and when you couple that with higher taxes and high cost of living, it is not as attractive as US or Switzerland.

In more concrete terms: 60-70k EUR is what you are looking at in Germany in good job markets, while in Poland the figure is 30-40k EUR. When you consider taxes, housing, and other costs, the difference is really not that great.

Life is pretty cheap in Germany if you live a simple life. Supermarkets are famously cheap. Clothes, electronics cost the same as anywhere else. Rent is bearable outside of big cities and jobs are quite well distributed across Germany.

The big difference is in the savings. Even if you just make twice as much, your savings per month can be several times higher than in Poland, which makes a lot of difference if you want to go back to your country later on and buy a house etc.

One has to also mention that living a simple life likely involves living in a smaller town somewhere with all the negative aspects that it involves. i.e. lack of social life, no other like-minded expats, etc.

Lots of "small towns" have social life especially university towns.

Also, yes, a simple life means not to live like an American expat lol. You can have a social life without spending lots of money if you socialize with "like minded" people who also don't want to waste money. You can have friends over for dinner at home with a few beers from the supermarket, play cards or boardgames or video games, soccer or basketball outside, have a BBQ, watch a movie at home, etc.

But it's not like you'd have an American expat-like luxury life in the alternative scenario of staying in Eastern Europe either. The point is, by keeping down your lifestyle you can multiply your savings and escape the cycle of poverty and be able to afford a home in a few years, if you go back to your home country and can support your relatives back home in the meantime. This is a great deal for a lot of people even without the fancy expat-like money-burning lifestyle.

Not just American expat, but any kind of expat (or if you prefer foreigner) because these are the people most likely to become new acquaintances and friends since they're likely also looking to make new friends. Locals will always be more reluctant and less interested to make friends because they already have a social circle and it takes effort on their side.

University towns only really make a difference if the hypothetical person moving there is college age and if there's a significant number of foreign students. Otherwise why would German college kids want to socialize with a late 20s foreigner?

Someone which moves to a new country will leave their entire social circle behind: family, friends, personal and professional acquaintances. It's an immense loss that will never really be recovered and the older you are the harder it is.

It must be a language thing but the oxymoron of "smaller town" strikes me as a very odd thing to say. I'm sure you use it to mean "smaller city" because according wikipedia a town has a population of around 5000 people. So when people think of a smaller town they may think of a place with a few hundred people.

Now lets cut to the chase. With the exception of the top 40 cities in Germany every other city has a population of less than 200k people. Unless you go to those 40 places which represent roughly 25% of the population the rest of Germany is nothing but "small cities".

Technically small town's not an oxymoron, since the two don't contradict each-other. :-) Now adding small was probably too much, but on the other hand a city of around 200k people already has quite high rents/prices.

I have some friends living in what according to wikipedia one could call a half-town and looked at an apartment there out of curiosity. A 3 room apartment (newly built) was about 280.000 EUR and that's in a town where they have 1 hotel, 1 restaurant (or maybe 2) and 0 supermarkets. In my experience if one wants a 3 room apartment in a normal city, one would add another 100.000 EUR to that price.

Outside of big cities, you're looking at <50k EUR gross. Granted, software wages outside big cities in Poland are significantly worse, but you can live pretty grand life in Warsaw for the same amount as simple life in Germany, while saving more.

It's possible to earn far more than 60-70k a year in Germany as a SWE. In my city, Munich, total cash compensation packages range from 85-110k Euros per year for 5-10 years of experience. The base salary trends to on the lower end, but there can be significant bonuses (company bonus, August vacation bonus, and Christmas bonus. For example st BMW, each of these are typically a month's extra salary). In addition, if your position is unionized, it's possible for you to accrue substantial overtime to further increase annual compensation.

And it's possible to earn far more than 40k EUR a year in Poland as well. Google Warsaw starts at 45k EUR for new grads, and you're looking at 80k EUR for senior software engineers. There are a few high pitching companies that try to match that. I was rather pointing out the typical case that covers most of the workers.

>When you consider taxes, housing, and other costs, the difference is really not that great.

I've made the opposite experience. Sure everything is 30% more expensive in Germany than in Poland but you also make twice as much money. The differences in cost of living are pretty insignificant but the salary is so much higher that it more than makes up the difference.

Then go to Switzerland. If you find a job and have EEU citizenship (not sure about residence permit), getting a permit to stay is just a form and less than 100.-. you can’t find a better place in the EEU for salaries imho. In a small town, your expenses are rather low and these jobs pay 80–120k CHF with taxes around 15–30% depending on the kanton.

Switzerland's famously cold towards foreigners. I'm not judging that either way, just mentioning it because I think it's a relevant detail.

I wouldn’t say so. And I have experienced being a foreigner there.

Famous where? Perhaps the country of origin of these rumors can shed some light about where the cold reception comes from.

There is the matter of family records having been lost in fires during/after WW2, and having to take a Polish language test.

>Even if one of your grandparents has Polish origins you can get easily equivalent of USA green card.

>Nothing compared to cruel H1B.

H1B doesn't need your grandparents to be from USA.

grandparent is for greencard/permanent residency equivalent - not for h1b.

H1B doesn't qualify you for a green card, either, it just gives you temporary residency and work authorization, without prohibiting you from intending to later seek a status that would qualify you for a green card without leaving first.

You're quoting two different things. The first is a green card equivalent, the second is a work permit.

you are right. i misread the comment.

Poland is not a great place to live either. Sales tax is 23%, stores are all shut on Sunday (by decree of the Polish Catholic church, essentially), real estate prices are similar to the midwest USA due to restrictions on new builds, and taxes on labor and small business are high and complicated.

The language itself uses a bastardized version of the Latin alphabet which is inferior to Cyrillic, and general pronunciation is the much more difficult compared to Ukrainian or Russian.

Many of the cities are cold and dark owing to latitude, and in winter filled with air pollution from out of control coal and trash burning in urban chimneys.

The main thing Poland has going for it is a massive flow of EU funds and no refugees from Africa or the Middle East, as well as a population with a generally Western mindset and work style.

Poland definitely could be a lot better, but these are some odd points.

VAT is higher than in Germany, but lower than in Sweden. Nothing that gets anyone going really. Real estate is quite cheap (dollar to dollar, not exactly for Poles) for a European country, though Warsaw does stand out as the capital.

There isn't anything "bastardized" or "inferior" about either the Polish or Belarusian alphabet, or really any alphabet for that matter. They just come from different backgrounds.

Poland is also largely south of Belarus, including Warsaw being south of Minsk, so not sure about cold or darkness.

Also, GDP growth rate in Poland was double or triple of GDP growth in Belarus over the last 10 years.

IT has grown even more.

While you've addressed things in a way that I think is fair, to me the most important points are about air pollution and atmosphere. Are they wrong about those as well?

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