The Trials of Psychedelic Therapy
psypressuk.com
psypressuk.com
You can use the exact same dose a month apart and will have wildly different reactions to it (both during the experience and afterwards (add digestive system weirdness to the list)); Nevermind trying to predict outcomes between different people, even if the dose is the same. And since the experience and some of the effects are based on your current mental landscape, it tends to bring more of what you are to the front (on top of your physical surroundings, sounds, smells). This can good or bad, and sometimes both. Point being that you can permanently alter your mind and body in unpredictable ways.
I greatly value my experiences with them but I don't touch them any more because I'm truly afraid of what they are capable of. I don't think I've been damaged by it in the long term. My own experience of course don't invalidate other's experiences or that it has helped people. I just feel that it dangerous in the same way that jamming wet fingers into a broken plugged-in toaster is dangerous. You might get lucky a few times but at some point the toaster will teach you it's ways, and you may never get to enjoy toast again. Well you might, but it might come in through a tube while you are drooling at clay in a mental hospital.
One shaman told me to never seek these things out. Wait for it to call you. Learn your lesson and move on. He also said not to push others into it. This is YOUR journey, their time will come sooner or later (meaning different lives, if you are into that). He also said not to try and force the substances/plants/medicines to give you specific knowledge/teachings/truths - they will show you what you need to see.
Sorry if I seem conflicted - I both want everyone to do it (hoping it would make the world better via empathy) and nobody to do it (because even a single person suffering a bad trip is not worth the cost (it really is hell x1000000)).
Hope it helps the discussion.
We don’t outright ban these like the way our parents did, but we don’t know how to consistently trigger good outcomes for a variety of personalities. The only way to resolve that is by testing and controlling for set and setting.
I have a buddy who did like 150 hits of LSD 20 years ago and there is a great sadness in him and how he can’t really share that experience with most people. People, who’ve never played around with LSD tend to become super condescending with him like he’s damaged.
The thing is, these studies or motions to incorporate psychedelics into therapy are never advocating for super human doses. I can definitely see the value in micro to moderate doses coupled with qualified therapy for non schizophrenic consenting adults. A full on like wizard trial into the nightmare heart of psycho hell with heroic doses of whatever is not what these guys are arguing for.
Maybe he really is damaged? Happy and sad states are required to be in some balance for a person to in a relative state of equilibrium.
I don't know your friend, maybe he is balanced and people who are at the other extreme (always need to be or to present themselves as happy) make fun of him.
But I do know drug users who can't enjoy anything any more.
I get this odd feeling when talking to him that he is mostly playing along with conventions. Like he is well aware how close everyone is to madness. Or maybe there is a layer to reality outside of our senses, very strange and more real than real. Like for people who have never done anything crazier than smoking a joint or getting really drunk.. it’s pretty easy to disregard psychedelics as just intoxication. But the upper doses can be transformative to say the least.
I know people who have never done drugs who don’t seem to enjoy anything either.
No, your exact comment is why trippers are discouraged from talking about their life altering profound experiences because you seem to be judgemental of the fact that it is drug induced.
>But I do know drug users who can't enjoy anything any more.
This really gets me. Its such a stereotype. What effect precisely are you referring to? To my knowledge there is no substance that alters your brain that permanently. Except brain damage and extreme overdoses, which has little to do with their effect and everything to do with dose and responsible use. There's a difference between people who tend to use drugs and how drugs affect people.
strange chemicals are the few things that seem to reach people in the center of their being. exercise being the second on the list for those starved from it.
What exacly do you mean by "Alter your brain permanently"?
https://www.amazon.com/Feeling-Great-Revolutionary-Treatment...
The first one helped me understand how the mind influences the emotions, haven't read the second.
Look at all the police videos on LiveLeak etc...you will see a common thread in all arrests gone wrong: the suspect didn't do as he was told despite repeated warnings.
Easily debunked. The police are not absolute, they are human beings. Some of them are not suitable for the position of power and use it to abuse others.
Are you truly generelizing to all arrests based on a few shitshows?
You know how many police officers get killed by trying to arrest people peacefully?
Do YOU know how many police officers get killed trying to make peaceful arrests? Do YOU know how many black people get killed by the police during peaceful arrests? Because I guarantee you that you do not. I am too tired of people like you commenting like this so I’m not going to put in the work of looking things up for you. Please educate yourself on this matter before speaking about it.
EDIT: s/office/officer/
Meanwhile spending time in circles where drugs are used you don't have to search at all to find plenty of examples of people who ruined their lives. Even weed can do that. And while it mostly applies to young people I have several examples of 35+ with no prior problems getting some very destructive habits. MDMA has completely changed a closed friend of mine (early forties) for the worse. Psychedelics? That's some very powerful stuff that should be handled with extreme care. Meanwhile you have youtube channels presenting them as you would have a beer.
I used to be pro legalization 10-15 years ago. Right now I would investigate the problem for at least 10 years as full time job before considering a position.
Well, you should be careful about that beer. Actually you should probably be more careful about that beer.
If you feel people are being too blase about cannabis, then you ought to be horrified at how popular culture treats alcohol. Alcohol is toxic, it's a killer in both acute and chronic scenarios. It's carcinogenic, harmful to a lot of your internal organs, it's addictive, it's fattening, it can even cause seizures if stopped too quickly. It causes mental health problems and mental decline. It really is one of the worst drugs and its annual death-toll beats out all other drugs combined.
No drug use is without problems, but this societal attitude that "drugs" are bad, but "just a beer" is fine... it's flat out deluded.
So I have no problem treating a lot of forms of drug use, particularly of drugs like cannabis and other less-harmful substances, just like someone having a beer.
What do you mean by that?
How is that relevant to whether we should treat drugs the same as or differently to "having a beer" ?
In particular you seemed to think it was wrong that they were treated the same or similarly by youtubers - but if the relative harms are comparable or even lesser for many drugs, why is this wrong?
Do you think if more drugs were legal alcohol consumption might not drop in some places?
There appears to be some evidence that in states with legal cannabis, for instance, binge drinking declines - https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeadams/2018/04/05/binge-drin...
And what I ment with that is that you would unleash some other abusable substances into society.
Psychedelics offer little in the way of physical risk and are not addictive in the same way.
Honestly they concern me far less than alcohol. It's booze, tobacco, meth, cocaine and heroin you want to really watch out for.
(edit - and we can probably include synthetic cannabinoids in there as well)
But I believe this is part of the criminalisation and demonisation. From the official channels, like media and school drug prevention(in germany), it was mostly a simple "don't do it" "it is all bad". While the cool, a few years older nutheads presented it as magic.
If it would be legal, people could talk about it more openly and share their experience freely to the younger generation and we could help the addicts more easily, if it would not be so stigmatized, like it is now.
In my area there is a great usage of amphetamines (with the root source of bad economy, though), but if those people look for official help, they have to fear of their children being taken away, etc.
I'm still pro legalization of almost anything regarding psychoactive drugs. Not even prespription, just over the counter as I see fit, but with clear labeling of ingredients, dosage, and mandatory quality control to exclude any adulteration.
IMO most of the shit that happens results from not knowing exactly what it is, how it has been adulterated, and unknown potency/dosage combined with stupid undergrond lore/disinformation because of criminalization.
This is even true for weed, which can be treated with all sorts of nasty stuff, either to make it weigh more, to hide bad quality(make it smell better, feel more sticky, look like good weed), or to make it more potent, and therefore addictive. I mean imagine smoking lead laced(for adding weight) weed, combined with some PCP(to make it hit more).
Not to forget the use of pesticides during growth and anti-molding agents for long storage in bags. Many of them are nerve poisons for humans.
This has happened, and it will continue to happen again and again as long as it is criminalized.
By insisting on carefully trialling for at least 10 years you are just prolonging these uncertainties, and deny the interested users a safe product.
All that uncertainty is self-inflicted by prohibition, especially for non-synthetic drugs. Absolute ignorance of looooong usage in many cultures.
That isn't the case recently if you look at the data. The discovery of new precursors a few years ago drove down the price of MDMA in Europe to the point where it is cheaper and easier to obtain than the possible replacements. Even in the US the flood of methylone and it's cousins is over. Meth is still sold as MDMA when pressed into pills, but those are pretty easy to distinguish.
Uh... alcohol is infinitely more dangerous than psychedelics, both potential and actual damage caused.
Alcohol is the most dangerous drug we have. Drinking too much at once can kill you (psychedelics can’t), discontinuing habitual use can kill you (only alcohol and benzos!).
Then we have the effects alcohol has on judgement and behavior, which aren’t good! Alcohol causes or exacerbates a ton of social problems.
LOL.
In a hospice setting it's kind of hard to make your life worse, so it's reasonable (IMO) to try somethings there.
AFAIK, schizophrenia is not caused but revealed by usage. AFAIK, most people suffering schizophrenia or psychotic attacks under the influence tend to be under 25 yo, which is the population that tends to suffer from those ailments.
I am not a doctor, take my words with a grain of salt and do your own research. If I were to be wrong, I would love to be corrected.
Existing drugs are low efficacy even in ideal cases, and even lower when you look at how they're used in the real world. Then you have to try and factor in side effects.
These are the factors I think drive this decision.
It's worth noting as well that whether and how severe the various drugs under consideration actually cause the poor outcomes you list remains a matter of debate. Maybe they don't, maybe they do and it's worse than the current worst case prediction. We won't know until exactly these studies are completed...
Full disclosure, I have had severe depression long term though I've been doing a lot better for the last 5 years or so.
"Ultimately, Oram concludes, ‘although the increased regulation may have had some impact, the decline of LSD research in the 1970s can be more convincingly explained through the outcome of the clinical trials of the late 1960s’"
> This drug does not work well for everyone
No drug does.
> and you only find out once you have taken it.
true of all prescribed drugs.
Forget that this particular drug is LSD. I want you to imagine you are reading an article about a previously unknown drug made by a new company that is touted to have great efficacy in treating mental illness.
However, you soon learn that the side effect of this drug is serious hallucinations every time you take it, often serious enough that people recommend that you only take it in the presence of a licensed professional able to deal with the fallout of a hallucinatory episode going bad.
Not only this, there is the potential of long lasting and fundamental personality change from it. Not just getting you back to a functional state, but changing who you are as a person. To the point where recreational users take this drug to find quasi-mystical experiences and make themselves a better person.
Would you guys really be gung ho about this drug if it were not called LSD and was made by Pfizer in a lab?
I'd honestly be scared enough to only even consider it as a last resort to cases where it was impossible to function otherwise. But LSD gets touted way too much as a miracle drug here, even though if any other drug had these side effects, people would try everything but it first.
Doesn't everything have the risk of causing "long lasting and fundamental personality change," including traveling to another country? It's just a shift in perspective.
Those are the exact reasons I dove headfirst into trying it a few times over a summer!
If I had heard that it was made by some pharmaceutical company I probably would have stayed far away from it. None of my friends and family where talking about pharmaceutical drugs and even at a young age I already knew that corporate culture did not value my best interests.
I mean, it was, it's just they had to stop and it gets made by underground chemists these days. But it absolutely was the product of a pharmaceutical company.
Regular medicines have side effects. Sometimes they are pretty bad side effects, but in general, folks think it is better than the alternative OR the side effects don't happen to all folks, and you won't know until you take it. Psychiatric drugs sometimes make things worse, but you won't always know - which is why some folks get started in the hospital. Heck, I have MS. The side effects from the drugs are kinda worse than the disease for me, but they mean I'm more likely to walk and draw in 10 years.
And all sorts of things can change your personality. For me: Age, people's deaths, moving to another country, abusive relationship, someone else's suicide attempt, things I've learned, and a slew of other things. LSD didn't have a more profound effect than these sorts of things. MDMA kind of did, but that was definitely for the better as I'm happier with myself.
All this said, I'll agree that these aren't for everyone, but no medicine is. And for some folks, these drugs work wonders and I don't want to take that away from folks.
That's what everybody should be doing as they experience life. Anyone who doesn't can never grow, improve.
> Would you guys really be gung ho about this drug
who is being?
> I'd honestly be scared enough to only even consider it as a last resort to cases where it was impossible to function
Anyone who has deteriorated to where they can't function will try what they can. I've been there.
I'm not comfortable with how you're presenting it but I like your thought experiment though, it's a good new perspective on an issue.
And honestly, I'd be interested in trying it. Particularly as the side effects of "no lasting harm" and "sense of well being that lasts long after the experience" started to come out.
Many consider the "hallucinations" to be actually quite valuable and seek them out. So that this substance causes them would be a plus.
As for doing psychedelics with a therapist, that can be beneficial, depending on what your goals are, where you are in your life, whether you can find a good therapist who you like, respect, and trust, etc.
But taking psychedelics in a therapeutic context is not the only legitimate way of using them constructively. You could also take them in shamanic, religious, ritualistic, creative, sexual, or even playful contexts -- though some would argue that these are seriously powerful and perhaps even sacred substances that deserve tremendous respect and should not be used casually.
As for the trip turning "bad", that's always a possibility because these are in fact very, very powerful substances, and one could get in to a situation one is not capable of dealing with on one's own.
That's why having an experienced person you like and trust with you is essential.
It's like going on an expedition to Antarctica or to the moon. You wouldn't be advised to try it alone. An experienced companion can help you in all sorts of ways and have your back.
That doesn't mean the trip is not worth taking. It just means that you should prepare thoroughly and take every reasonable precaution.
Also, regarding bad trips: it may be more productive to call them "difficult trips" or, better, "challenging trips". If one takes the attitude of curiosity and tries to learn something from every experience, no matter how unsettling, one may find that the challenging trips are ones that offer a lot of learning opportunities. I know that I've learned far more from my bad trips than the good ones.
That doesn't mean that everyone can deal with anything that comes up during a challenging trip.. some people are clearly not ready, or have some demons they really, really don't want to or aren't capable of facing. This is why doing this in a therapeutic context may be safest, but at least go in with an experienced person you like and trust. They might be able to help.
As for personality changes... that could actually be a good thing. Some people are happy with themselves the way they are, others are looking for a change. However, such changes on psychedelics don't tend to be permanent. After a while, people tend to slide back in to the same old habits and the same old ways of viewing the world. It usually takes very significant, conscious, and deliberate effort over the long run to have a chance of making what you learn during a trip in to your life stay with your forever.
Anecdotally, the people I know who talk the most about how helpful psychedelics have been for them are less well adjusted than the average person I know.
My own rules:
marijuana: not more than once per month (I don't use it as a medicine, so once a month is fine for me)
mescaline: not more than once per month (low dose, 3 to 6 teaspoons of dried san pedro powder on a saturday)
psilocybin: not more than once per month (low dose below 3 grams)
psilocybin: not more than once every 6 months (high dose above 3 grams)
dmt: not more than once every 6 months (not smoke, must be in ritual setting with a shaman person)
impepho: not more than once a month (typically once every 3 months because of the smell)
caffeine: not more than once per week
nicotine/alcohol: don't use.
All of them are better when in nature and away from work/stress. Do not try to use them to get away from stress or to make you feel better. Feel better first, then use them. I also want to say, don't cross-use them: if you've taken one of the above, wait the same amount of time to pass before using something with similar time: meaning if you use mescaline this month, wait a month before you try marijuana; if you used high dose psilocybin recently, wait 6 months before touching dmt. Reasoning: some of them take time and their effect last longer than the day or two after dosing. Sometimes it's a week, sometimes it's 6 months. I would also not recommend combining them in the same setting or using them when you are on chronic medications (from a Dr) due to unpredictable interactions that may or may not be safe.
So the idea of using LSD daily like people are popping normal pills.. probably not a good idea at all.