Chess is taking over the online video game streaming world and it will change
theconversation.com
theconversation.com
My contributions to the chess community are much smaller. I wrote u/relevant_post_bot[2] for /r/anarchychess and stylochess[3] in an attempt to solve the identity of mysterious super grandmasters[4].
[0] https://www.openingtree.com
[1] https://www.lichess4545.com/team4545/
[2] https://github.com/fmhall/relevant-post-bot
[3] https://github.com/fmhall/stylochess
[4] https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/gqlqlz/the_identity_...
I am going to check out the Twitch Chess ‘show’ mentioned in the article, looks very cool. I enjoy Go webcasts supported by the American Go Association.
I use a very strong Go playing program for practice. I have it rate all of my game moves and for each move show the best alternative. It really helps, and has replaced expensive lessons from a South Korean Go professional I took a few years ago.
I need to find something similar for Chess. I played in the US Chess Open in 1978, and have not played very many serious games since then.
It was popular enough that it drew a strong reactionary movement of people complaining about chess posts. You can argue about clickbait, but the view counts (not that #30 is shabby at all) don't do it justice.
GM Anish Giri also streams on YouTube with respectable concurrent viewers.
Ever since chess became big on twitch, online communities are increasingly filled with drama around Nakamura's persona, other twitch related drama, or just general gamer-community style content that was largely absent before.
The popularity largely focusses on a few twitch celebrities rather than talented players, it does very little to promote chess players who deserve to get more attention for the quality of their play, or just genuinely players who have played for a long time.
I think it does little to foster growth of chess as a sport and is just an opportunity to milk whatever commercial value anyone can out of the attention which I wager will be short-lived, as the twitch crowd moves on to the next thing.
I don't find all of Nakamura's content equally interesting: I don't care so much about PogChamps (I think it's good for chess, but I don't enjoy watching it much). I have enjoyed watching 4 strong players muddle their way through learning 4 way chess, etc. I've enjoyed watching him play odds games with lots of knights and talk about what he'd discovered about these unusual games.
I'm playing more than I used to, and I know a whole bunch of people are picking up the game or playing more as a result of the attention.
Yes, some of the attention may be episodic. Bobby Fischer permanently boosted chess in the US, but the remnants of the boost felt today was nowhere near what it was at peak. Still, things compound: some fraction of those who get interested by chess streams will become people who consume chess content that you personally approve of.
The other drama things I can remember have come mainly from the Chess world, too. Chess.com vs chess24 tournament drama. And Nakamura vs Carlsen drama.
The main types of drama coming from Twitch people has been things like sexism in the Chess world and elitism in the chess world.
Additionally, you complain that this only focuses on the few Twitch celebrities rather than talented players... except that if the Twitch world doesn't understand why those players are talented, how will they know they have talent? This was a main criticism of chess tournament streams before chess took off on Twitch; casual viewers didn't understand what the commentators were talking about. Twitch opening up commentary to new players and teaching them why a move is bad/good from a casual viewpoint is only a good thing for the chess world.
If you actually wanted those talented players to get more attention for the quality of their play, you'd welcome this sort of beginner commentary and content. Otherwise, fewer people will recognize their talent. Do note that this takes time; you can't convert beginner chess viewers into more competent viewers in the span of a few months.
If you actually wanted those talented players to get more attention for the quality of their play, you'd reject comments like Finegold's "negative talent" comment. That is so off-putting and toxic, and is one of the primary reasons why people don't get into chess in the first place. There is a shocking amount of elitism in the chess world. And it actually comes off that way in your comment. "No, Twitch viewers are watching the wrong players, they're watching not-as-talented personality players and not the ones I think they should watch instead."
And I don't understand why people get upset by this.
Twitch, like in any other media, has a wide variety of content: has educational content, has entertainment, has competitive gameplay, etc. Just because some games are competitive doesn't mean you don't have different formats of content around the game.
Entertainment is still the most popular form of content, and that's fine.
I'd rather watch Hikaru Nakamura's streaming to any games featuring Magnus Carlsen (unless his opponent is Nakamura). You get the sense that Nakamura is one of the kindest and most generous people around, and he's plenty funny too. Compare and contrast the ways in which Nakamura and Carlsen are going about the business of building chess business. The world champion sets up traditional chess events, such as competitions and tours. Nakamura streams, and not just alone but with other streamers, and makes a show of training xqc even though xqc is mediocre at chess and probably always will be -- this is entertaining!
Either Finegold gets this and is playing his part to add to the drama (entertainment) or he doesn't get it and is missing out on all the fun. Either way he contributes to Nakamura's efforts!
Yes, yes, Finegold makes awesome videos to teach children chess, and he is entertaining in his own way, but there's no need to dump on Nakamura's efforts. Different markets.
Although it's been a little dead since last time. I have been thinking of reviving it but lichess notifications aren't very good at least the forum system. Many people don't login to their account on a regular basis so it's easy to miss them.
An an email based invitation system seems better. What do you guys think? Is anyone interested in maintaining a sort of a club for HN members so we could include everything like open source experimentation and streaming place [0] from a few days ago?
0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24333474
Edit: Started a substack. I will head out now!
https://hnclub.substack.com/p/lichess-tournament-next-weeken...
Recent discussion on the same subject:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23537774
Btw this article is lifted from a less addy site here:
https://theconversation.com/chess-is-taking-over-the-online-...
I should have been more careful.
And it's less durable than a smartphone which is great as saving to SSD at shutdown.
All it takes one person with skill and generosity to completely change a community for the better. I hope to become one day this kind of person.
He has a good talk about how he did it here : - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZgyVadkgmI
The article mentions a cultural clash. That isn't so unusual for the game. The history of chess can be traced back centuries, with both variations in rules and its place in society. The game survived regardless.
As a somewhat odd example, this would be like the Nintendo DS version of Street Fighter - which allowed you to assign on-screen buttons for common attacks. Rather than having to master a series of button presses and execute perfectly, you could just tap the button and fire off a Hadoken. Would I ever compete at EVO playing the game like that? No, of course not. But it was fun! I still lost a lot, but it was just a deeper game.
I think the same could be done for Chess. Let those of us with mediocre knowledge and skills play the game at the level the masters play at with the help of some AI. Rather than handicapping with time or giving up a piece, let the other player have options to get help from the AI once in a while - say 3 times during the game. Or have it set to not allow blunders without confirmation. There's a lot that could be done to add pleasure to the game.
Correspondance games on lichess.org give you an opening explorer which shows you what masters have played before. (Click on the microscope, then on the book icon.)
Here's what it looks like: https://i.imgur.com/Hj5Rt0b.png
If you really want to play with AI assistance, look for cyborg/centaur/advanced chess.
It looks like there's a lichess group for that, but it doesn't seem active anymore: https://lichess.org/team/cyborg
> those of us with mediocre knowledge and skills
Don't worry about openings yet, at all. Practise basic tactics (pins, forks, skewers, discovered attack, overloading, interference etc) until you almost never fall victim to them, and can spot it quickly when others do.
At low level, you don't really need to memorize a ton of openings. As White, you can use an opening that has few possible continuations for the Black, or specialize in weird and perhaps lesser-known opening (Bird, Sicilian first for instance). Whether or not they are viable at high level is not relevant at all. You can have fun with "your" opening - and maybe learn a second one when you are bored of it.
As Black, you might already have guessed that your "strategy" will be a bit different - cause White can throw anything at you as I've explained (that's another reason to choose a weird White opening yourself - at least you know how to answer to that one). With Black, focus less about rote memorization of the opening moves and more on the general principles that guide the opening (control the center, mobilize your bishops and knights, care about your pawn structures, castle quickly). Evaluating your moves and your opponent's according to those criteria is the really interesting part.
In other words, despite all the folklore around Chess, it is not a memory game - not until a high level - but a game in which you interpret general principles (judge a position) all while attacking or defending.
I use to have a java game on my old Nokia phone once. Never found it again. If I made a certain opening, or did a certain move, it use to tell me that I played that particular move.
I do peruse Twitch fairly regularly looking for streams that resonate. I'm always repulsed by a "LET'S GO BOYS" mentality which meanders between homophobia, sexism, bullying, hate speech.
Chess is a very good thing for Twitch.
There's a few streamers I watch semi-regularly, but I always turn off the chat.
A standard engine is probably somewhere around 3000 strength (better than any human), and the average person who cheats is probably 1000-1800 strength. Within 1-2 games you can easily tell if a 1500 player is magically playing above super-gm strength all the sudden. The player also isn't going to be good enough to not play the computer moves that give them away, because they won't understand them!