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Comment by alexbanks | Hacker News Reader

I guess my point is not that engineers should be exempt from being held accountable for their work, but that engineers are frequently asked to do things incorrectly/poorly/negligently and then assessed by their employers for their willingness to comply. Sure, you can say "Just stand up to your employer", but that's an incredibly dismissive stance on a complicated issue. Yes, you should say no to requirements that are flat out illegal, but is it ever that cut and dry? I'd be surprised to find it was ever that simple.

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According to my engineering professional association, it is that simple. They'd have no qualms stripping me of my license to practice engineering for knowingly approving an unsafe design, regardless of what effect that decision would have had on my financial well-being.

The big difference is that companies need professional engineers. Professional approval on certain things is required by law. I'm not sure that would be a good idea for software, but that is what makes the system work for professional engineers.

> They'd have no qualms stripping me of my license to practice engineering for knowingly approving an unsafe design

Presumably there would be repercussions at the government level if a company repeatedly demanded engineers do things worthy of stripping their licenses though, no?

This varies by jurisdiction, but perhaps I oversimplified. There is another reason that doesn't happen.

The individual engineer doing the work needs a license, but the company itself also needs a permit to practice. The permit must be held by an engineer, who is personally responsible for the engineering that occurs under their permit.

So, the permit holder needs to worry not just about their own ethical behaviour, but that of all engineers in the company. They are incentivized to ensure the company will hold the public safety paramount, or to walk away if they cannot (thereby leaving the company without a permit).

If the company has a pattern of misbehaviour, it may be difficult to obtain a permit.

_Exactly_. Tech companies regularly exist purely based off of illegal business models (they call them _Disruptions_).

So, yes, we agree, if there are repercussions for a company regularly breaking the law, then engineers can and should refuse work that has negative legal or moral repercussions. But in the world of tech, that's not the case.

Wait a minute, I thought software engineers were in high demand, with companies fighting over them and opportunities everywhere! At least that's what one out of every 10 HN articles tells me. Surely that demand gives them a little power and agency over their work. I think we are pretending here that these developers have only one option: "Sure, boss! Whatever you say, boss!"

I personally believe that you, the software developer typing in the code, should hold yourself personally accountable for what you are typing in. You might also be designing what you type in, or even setting the requirements, but it might be other people. Regardless, you are making the software come into being--you're the one coding it and pushing it to the repo, so you should set the standard of what is acceptable. This "well, boss told me to do it!" rationalization and blame-shifting is how we get dangerous and unethical software.

And, yes, I have quit software jobs where I was asked to write software I considered ethically questionable, and failed to change the boss's mind.

> I think we are pretending here that these developers have only one option: "Sure, boss! Whatever you say, boss!"

No, I am suggesting that there is significantly more grey area between your moral highground and reality.

> I personally believe that you, the software developer typing in the code, should hold yourself personally accountable for what you are typing in

Yep.

> This "well, boss told me to do it!" rationalization and blame-shifting is how we get dangerous and unethical software.

It really is a strange world that, when corporations are attempting to turn profit on illegal behavior, it's the meaningless bodies-in-seats that we're trying to hold accountable.

I am, and have been, repeatedly, suggesting that the lowest level cannot be held accountable without holding the rest of the levels accountable. Jailing engineers for doing things their companies demanded of them is ridiculous if you're not also jailing those doing the demanding. I'm kind of shocked this isn't painfully obvious.

> And, yes, I have quit software jobs where I was asked to write software I considered ethically questionable, and failed to change the boss's mind.

Congratulations, that's a level of privilege lots can't afford.

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