30-35 percent of Covid-19-positive Big Ten athletes had myocarditis
centredaily.com
centredaily.com
> Wayne Sebastianelli was clear that B10 hasn't cardiac MRI'd every athlete who tested positive for Covid. However, among ones that were cardiac MRI'd (don't know number or why they were MRI'd) about 1/3 "had the level of inflammation that was determined to be myocarditis."
...
> One more thing: it wasn’t a “study.” It appears he got this info somewhat informally from other athletic doctors from other schools, which may explain the rough numbers.
Among other things.
So I'd recommend at least changing the title, as it's not actually the case (that we know of) that 1/3 of covid-positive players have myocarditis, just 1/3 of covid-positive players who were MRIed.
Update: It doesn't seem like any other schools are actually seeing this according to reports here: https://saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/report-multip...
"At this time, there have been no cases of myocarditis in covid-19 positive student-athletes at Penn State."
So walked back from the entire conference to a single university which didn't have a single case. What is going on?
A local paper wrote an article on a couple sentences from Sebastianelli’s hour-long talk to a local school board about whether sports were safe during covid. During that talk, he off-handedly mentioned this 30-35% number that he heard from some other doctor. He probably misheard or misinterpreted it. But once the number gets into a headline, it becomes a study showing a medical fact. Even after the retraction (not really a retraction in that it’s not something that was ever published in the first place), that number is still in a HN front page title.
We've seen this type of sampling bias before, where people having a problem makes them more likely to choose to get tested for it, which leads to an unrealistically high "x% of people have this problem" estimate.
Thanks!
https://newsroom.heart.org/news/chronic-anabolic-steroid-use...
I don't really consider myself a long-hauler, based on what I've read of their symptoms I'm way better off. I know at some point reading stuff like this is fear mongering because anybody can drop dead for any reason at any time. But I still check everything every day, to make sure that I'm alright. It's hard to communicate to people who haven't had it yet that you don't know what's going to set it off.
Having read about and listened to reports about covid "long haulers" (look up Vincent Racaniello's YouTube channel[0], his podcast team of virologists, doctors and immunologists discuss this frequently) I'm making pretty damned sure I'm taking every precaution to avoid becoming infected with coronavirus, especially now that I'm in my 50's. I don't think you're fear mongering, for some people succumbing to covid can leave some pretty nasty long term effects.
I was in bed for a good week and a half, the fever and just feeling like I was dying was awful, at some points during it I couldn't walk from bed to the en-suite bathroom without feeling like I was going to pass out.
Even about 4 months or so later the cough persisted to the point where I had to go to hospital to get my throat and lungs x-ray'd as I was coughing up thick bloody mucus.
It was hell, also rashes which I presume were caused by the fever are still annoying me now occasionally with random outbreaks of horrible itching.
Fuck that noise. I think that was the first time I've had the flu. If covid is even worse than the flu then I want no part of it!
Amen!
Anybody who says that Covid is "just" a "bad flu" has never had a bad flu.
"Bad flu" is at the level of wanting to kill yourself but being unable to because you simply can't move.
Then I got better. It wasn't as bad as the flu could get, but I felt what it feels like to have your body stop so totally that even going to the bathroom to vomit is a herculean task, danger heightened by the stairs I'd stumbled past. It felt like I was simply going to die. And many have it worse, even among those who live.
Of course, sometimes it's not too much. Broad range on these things.
My doc noticed my vitamin D level was a little low ~5 years back so he recommended I take some over the counter vitamin D supplements....which I've been taking casually since then. Obviously it's anecdotal, but I rarely ever get sick.
I don't know if I ever had it (I still get tested occasionally), but I don't ever feel 100% anymore. I don't know if this feeling is psychological or if it has something to do with COVID-19.
> COVID-19 has existed for less than six months, and it is easy to forget how little we know about it. The standard view is that a minority of infected people, who are typically elderly or have preexisting health problems, end up in critical care, requiring oxygen or a ventilator. About 80 percent of infections, according to the World Health Organization, “are mild or asymptomatic,” and patients recover after two weeks, on average. Yet support groups on Slack and Facebook host thousands of people like LeClerc, who say they have been wrestling with serious COVID-19 symptoms for at least a month, if not two or three. Some call themselves “long-termers” or “long-haulers.”
> I interviewed nine of them for this story, all of whom share commonalities. Most have never been admitted to an ICU or gone on a ventilator, so their cases technically count as “mild.” But their lives have nonetheless been flattened by relentless and rolling waves of symptoms that make it hard to concentrate, exercise, or perform simple physical tasks. Most are young. Most were previously fit and healthy. “It is mild relative to dying in a hospital, but this virus has ruined my life,” LeClerc said. “Even reading a book is challenging and exhausting. What small joys other people are experiencing in lockdown—yoga, bread baking—are beyond the realms of possibility for me.”
> COVID-19 symptoms can sometimes persist for months. The virus can damage the lungs, heart and brain, which increases the risk of long-term health problems.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/i...
N = 143
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6930e1.htm
N = 270
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/...
N = 100
The rest of the studies cited by Mayo are all in the same range, feel free to check. Mayo Clinic or not, you're seriously going to draw conclusions over this?
Moreover, this:
"A quarter of respondents in the Body Politic survey have tested negative, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have COVID-19."
Okay. I guess it doesn't mean that, but it means that you should be skeptical of the claims of causality.
No treatment was really able to help me. I was already on adderall, and, while it could keep me upright, I felt like a zombie the whole time. I ended up consulting a sleep neurologist, who basically said they could try "activating" antidepressants (I was already on one), or stimulants, which I was also already on. I don't know if modafinil was a thing yet, but I never heard them mention it.
I thought my life was over. What could I even do with my life, if I always had to sleep 12-14+ hours a day? No doctor seemed to be able to do anything, there was no specific cause, and it's such a rare condition that most people don't know it exists. That, along with the stigma that comes with invisible disabilities (and, believe me, this certainly was disabling) almost made me want to give up.
Then, I started getting better. I didn't know why I got better, but, at that point, I didn't care. I had my life back.
All in all, it was an awful experience, which I wouldn't even wish on someone I hated.
Not for nothing: I had idiopathic hypersomnia in graduate school, too -- it tends to happen when you're depressed from being in graduate school. As you were already on an antidepressant, and it was a suggested treatment for your illness, it sounds like this is a more probable cause than the one that you're trying to imply.
If people have vague symptoms that are uncertain and ambiguous, then their opinions on the nature of their illness are probably not terribly useful or accurate.
But if there exists a severe illness, it seems almost certain that there are some people out there who have a mild form of it that is ambiguous and uncertain because there is a spectrum.
More generally, I believe that evolution implies that diseases evolve in a manner such that people find them hard to identify. Because humans are pretty ruthless at eliminating diseases that catch their attention. HIV is an example of a virus that had gotten very close to coexisting, but then people noticed it and have been trying to wipe it out. Vague chronic problems that are blamed on the victim are inherently what everything logically has to become in the long run.
To take the argument to the extreme, even hypochondria must be a physical disorder, even though of course like cancer etc. there might be many causes that are arguably not the same.
What we don't know -- and what articles like this ignore -- is how common and serious the symptoms are. And asking a group of people, one-quarter of whom haven't even tested positive for the virus, to self-report everything that has them feeling crummy, is not science.
The Atlantic is not a scientific journal, but their "science writer" should at least be aware of this basic standard of evidence, and at best, avoid the temptation to spread panic based on speculation.
Like you say, it's the Atlantic, not a scientific journal. I prefer to say "not terribly useful or accurate" rather than "not science".
I mean,in the US alone covid already killed nearly 190k people from a pool of around 6200k infected. Doesn't this justify having informed evidence-based discussions?
One manifestation of this is when they look at people that have bad things happening to them, they come up with a list of how they can avoid that thing happening to them.
Sometimes those things are very reasonable - I'll avoid these dangerous behaviors, I'll engage in these good behaviors, I'll avoid those areas, etc. But sometimes the threats are not the kind that you can really avoid. Sometimes people respond by blaming the afflicted with having poor intrinsic attributes, as opposed to their own superior attributes. Sometimes people respond by simply disbelieving the afflicted, discounting evidence that they would have considered otherwise. Because it is simply too taxing to really consider the risk.
I don't know you from Adam, I have no idea if that's what's motivating you, but what you said reminds me of what other people say in that situation.
Did you ever test positive for COVID-19?
Do you lift weights or do strength training?
How much protein do you consume on an average day?
No
A normal amount? Probably a little more than normal? Like a turkey/ham sandwich or chicken caesar salad for lunch and then some entre for dinner? I'm not a vegetarian if that's what you're getting at
I don't think I've been "wiped out" as you say. So maybe this is more psychological or something different. Or if I ever had it, it might have affected me differently. Who knows!
I was suffering daily after COVID when living still under lockdown.
I moved to a non-lockdown country (where the strategy is now herd immunity) and felt better immediately, and now have zero lingering symptoms.
Lockdown and Government restrictions are more suffocating than COVID.
I can easily offer my own experience with covid symptoms that is quite different than yours but I wouldn't make an "it is" statement because of it.
Be careful with supplements containing fat-soluble compounds , of which Vitamin D is one. Vitamin D is a hormone. Careful!
Same goes for any metals.
Taking supplements occasionally shouldn't be harmful. A vitamin D supplement every once in a while should be ok, specially if you are locked up and not getting sufficient sunlight.
The key being "occasionally". However, if you routinely take them, please have a checkup done on the next opportunity you get. If you don't have any deficiencies, you shouldn't need supplementation.
Vitamin C should be fine. It is water-soluble, excess can be disposed of, if your kidneys are normal.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32252338/
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200518/more-vitamin-d-lowe...
Most folks are deficient, and it is difficult, though not impossible to overdo it. Also, if you are living at 35+ degrees latitude, dark skinned, or ~50+ years old, you are deficient.
Your warnings to be careful are careful in the wrong direction, ie. dangerous.
Just found this on the front page!:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096007602...
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCHEARTFAILURE.110...
Here is part of the abstract:
>The incidence of viral myocarditis was studied prospectively at the Central Military Hospital 1 in Finland in connection with an A1 virus influenza epidemic in Jan. 1978. Of 104 conscripts taken consecutively to hospital because of a sudden respiratory infection, 41 had serologically confirmed influenza A, 37 were serologically negative, while in 26 it was not possible to carry out complete virological analyses. Six of the serologically confirmed influenza patients had acute myocarditis on the basis of serial electrocardiographic ST segment and/or T wave changes, unresponsive to beta-blockade. The incidence of the influenza A myocarditis was thus 9% of the 67 verified and suspected cases of influenza taken together.
So 6 people of the 67 people who went to a single Finnish Hospital in 1978 with influenza had myocarditis. Through a game of telephone that becomes "myocardial involvement in seasonal influenza infection has been reported in up to 10% of cases" which clearly isn't the conclusion of the original study. The original sample is tiny and it is already measuring from a population of people who were sick enough to go to the hospital. 30-35% would be a hugely alarming number, especially among 18-23 year old Division 1 athletes. It would be difficult to find a healthier population of people.
And I totally agree with your conclusion. It's an alarming figure and if further numbers prove to be similar, it shows just how worse this is than the aforementioned flu.
As the currently top comment is pointing out, the "30-35%" is based on, essentially, rumor. They haven't given MRIs to every Division I athlete. Some unknown number of people had MRIs, and 30% of those had myocarditis.
Was this a representative sample? We have no way of knowing. But here's a scary article, regardless.
Both COVID-19 and flu can result in complications, including: Pneumonia, Respiratory failure, Acute respiratory distress syndrome (i.e. fluid in lungs) Sepsis, Cardiac injury (e.g. heart attacks and stroke), Multiple-organ failure (respiratory failure, kidney failure, shock), Worsening of chronic medical conditions (involving the lungs, heart, nervous system or diabetes) Inflammation of the heart, brain or muscle tissues, Secondary bacterial infections (i.e. infections that occur in people who have already been infected with flu or COVID-19)
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/s...
If it comes via COVID-19 (apparently), in a way it is, no?
"Approximately 90% of hospitalized patients identified through COVID-NET had one or more underlying conditions, the most common being obesity, hypertension, chronic lung disease, diabetes mellitus, and cardiovascular disease."
However, this is a straw man. I commented on risk not transmissibility.
People tend to chase after what is measured. Most of the metrics are rates of people who get it and rates death. This is further broken down by region and demographic. So, we talk a lot about these things.
The other issues surrounding it are either not being measured or the measurements are not public. So, we are not talking about them or chasing after things that impact them.
I conclude that few people have had the full blown flu recently; or any disease that has fevers > 100 degrees.
Chock it up to the vaccine, significant herd immunity, etc.
Last significant fever I had was an inconsistent barely 100 degrees (walking pneumonia 8 years ago), and if I could wear a mask around others and work from home to prevent those cough or chills for a handful of nights there'd be no question about it.
https://saturdaytradition.com/big-ten-football/report-multip...
There has been at least one confirmed case among MLB players[1]. It is also interesting to note that this cites a 10-20% number for the occurance of myocarditis among people with COVID-19.
[1] - https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/29579222/boston-red-sox-...
That's about it. There's no treatment, there's no medication, and if it were to get worse the only option is a lung transplant. I have to learn to breathe more deeply and my heart will wear out significantly faster due to the higher arterial pressure and faster pulse. I've got to be careful exercizing; 50% diffusion is considered the point where a light jog drives you into hypoxia. My o2 sensor says I drop down to the low 80s if I miss a breath at the wrong time. That's just going to be the new normal for the next 50 years, should I be so lucky.
Honestly the oxygen is the least inconvenient thing. Each breath gets me a bit more air than a normal person would get on top of Mt Ranier, but I've already pretty much adjusted to that. Low oxygen is hard to notice and adjusted for quickly, but nobody talks about the CO2. CO2 is being locked into my blood by the same scars/thickening that are keeping oxygen out. Many people can relate to extended altitude sickness (and how much it sucks) but very very few people my age have elevated CO2 like this. The closest you can get is sprinting until you're sucking air, and you can't catch your breath even if you take the biggest breath you can, until your ribs creak. I have been living in that moment for six months. I highly recommend against it. At the best times I'm anxious and forgetful; at the worst I'm just lying down for hours trying to breathe as quickly and deeply as possible with an intense sensation of being on the verge of passing out. It sucks, its cutting into my lifespan and it's very seriously affecting my quality of life.
Long hauler effects like this seem to be in the double digit percentages, which puts the number of people around a hundred times higher than the fatalities. Seriously, it's very not fucking worth it. Even if I recover partially -which is unlikely, at this point- or even if you "only" get a less physical impact like postviral syndrome, its going to severely fuck up years of your life, FAR worse than whatever quarantine is doing to you.
I hope there is some possibility of long term recovery beyond where you're stuck at now.
The trick of it is that if breathing difficulty is the only symptom, it's very difficult to diagnose. You breathe faster and your heart beats faster to keep your o2 at 98+. In the emergency room there's no way to tell me (50% breathing capacity, 94 o2 sat, 120 bpm) from someone scared about losing their sense of smell (98 o2, 120 bpm, 100% breathing). The only way to actually distinguish is the amount of scarring on a CT scan (which is very rough, varies person to person, and really needs a prior CT) or a diffusion test, which requires the person to be well enough to breathe into a big machine for 15 or so minutes.
Since so few people have gotten such a workup, AFAIK there's no real sense of how severe the normal infection is. I would guess myself to be in the 80-95th percentile for unluckiness at my age. If the impact on my breathing had been just a bit better, I think I would have just acclimated to the new normal and called it a lingering cough. The "sick"-like effects were so mild that I would have otherwise guessed it was unrelated. Then again I'm prone to ignore stuff like that.
I deeply hope doctors keep a close eye on how the average person's lungs are affected in terms of gas exchange and scarring. Even if you don't notice a change, good breathing habits can help reduce arterial pressure and reduce strain on your heart.
I’m not a doctor, and don’t know one way or the other. Is there a reason you’re claiming this represents “permanent damage”?
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/s...
> Key quote: "at this time, there have been no cases of myocarditis in COVID-19 positive student-athletes at Penn State."
We also don't know the health of these players prior to contracting COVID. I also wonder about factors like drug and alcohol abuse and possibly steroid use.
Key quote: "at this time, there have been no cases of myocarditis in COVID-19 positive student-athletes at Penn State."
There’s serious questions about whether hell ever be able to pitch again in the MLB.
Thanks, I didn't get these symptoms luckily.
It has since returned to normal and all signs point to it just being anxiety.
But I also had a point in July where I felt really wiped out for two or three days, and at the same time my neighbor tested positive with Coronavirus.
I thought that I should probably get tested, but no one I talked to thought my symptoms warranted getting checked, so I guess I don't know.
I would also like to know, but I'm more interested in the antibody test than the "am I currently sick" test.
When the lungs are infected, the heart works harder to pump blood through them. Virus-bearing blood flows directly from the lungs to the heart, and even if it isn't infected there will be a large local immune response. That means inflammation. Its nearly unavoidable once your lungs are infected. Even in young people, theres a huge difference between throat strep and lung strep (or flu)! It just isn't apparent until 20/30/40/50 years down the road.
I used to think of the flu as just "a cold, but worse", so I usually wouldn't bother to get a yearly flu shot. I saw it as five minutes of guaranteed unpleasantness vs an unlikely week of unpleasantness. My employer used to have CVS come by the office and give them to us for free; I didn't even have to pay and I still sometimes wouldn't bother.
Now via all these discussions I'm learning so much about how bad the flu can actually be for you in real, lasting ways. Really eye-opening.
EDIT: I stand corrected. It did, just not the Big 10 specific numbers.
Otherwise, myocarditis has been on the CDC list of COVID risks for months, and there have been numerous reports of COVID causing lasting heart damage.
Your question incorrectly assumes we didn't know about this until now. Your familiarity of COVID details simply isn't complete. Which is no big deal: We can't all know everything on the topic. However, before I make a comment like the one you made, I try to do a few quick google searches to check my assumptions.
This article covered it a few weeks ago. Another before that https://www.boston.com/news/health/2020/07/27/coronavirus-he...
/S
I think they just want Trump to be wrong so badly that they're blind to the alternative. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
The media in general is a shadow of what it once was. Good journalism is very nearly dead. That has serious repercussions for both society and democracy.